IndieHQ / Article Detail

Comments So Far...

1. On April 19th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
   jacobe said:

   I think the letter is great.

2. On April 19th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
   Jason said:

   im curious as to what everyone’s thoughts are on blogs that post out of print albums without the labels consent? considering they no long print them, would it be a problem?

3. On April 19th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
   Katie said:

   Well that’s stupid. I’ve never heard of Kinixtion but it sounds like a file-sharing type thing. They haven’t sued Limewire. Why are they sueing a 16 year old girl? She’s a kid. Kids make mistakes. I’m sure she understands how big of a mistake she made. Also, Eyeball Records could have been nicer about it instead of being so rude. I don’t believe they are doing the right thing. It’s pretty much a waste of time if you ask me.

4. On April 19th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
   sam said:

   because that letter was the most professional thing i have ever read. you and the bands have every right to be angered, but learn how to handle a situation first. you are a perfect example as to why the music industry has a reputation for being cut throat. it’s the assholes behind the labels.

5. On April 19th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
   Lackey said:

   http://imthescene.blogspot.com/ also hosts your bands music files.

6. On April 19th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
   ryan said:

   ya thats a pretty dick email. no lawsuit would hold up with the record label making “estimates” as to how many downloads there were for each album posted. you’re lucky you found a 16 year old girl because anyone else would see how bullshit that claim is.

7. On April 19th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
   Damon said:

   Hey Mario,

   I’ve forwarded your blog information along to some people. I see a great Friday in store for you.

8. On April 19th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
   1000cleverlines said:

   I shut down because Wizard didn’t want a lawsuit. We were affliated with them and knew that we would be next. They obviously were close to us if they saw we shut down. We promoted the bands, and everyone knows that the bigger bands don’t make ANY money. I chose not to post from indie bands unless I had their consent (Bridgeford and Kill Your Ex). If you have a problem with our blogs then we have a problem with you. Don’t talk shit about us and we won’t talk shit about you….. We pirates stick together when this shit happens and 1000cleverlines will return…. If you have a problem with me email me: dylmans@aol.com or IM me at dylmans and we will discuss our points of views like rational people.

   1000cleverlines

9. On April 19th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
   Lucifer Box said:

   How can any of you call this guy an asshole?!?! Seriously!! Look at what is happenening to the music industry now! From a naive scene kids point of you, you just want the freshest newest bullshit-ore you can get you mits on and then show them off to your friends on your latest ipod. But think about how much money an indie label has to cough up in order for there signings to make a release. Now you all bitch about bands don’t make any money from the recordings. Yes that may be true, they make very little back unless their first album is multi million selling and there advance was tiny. But bands make there living on the road, and how do they get onto the road, via the labels and other sponsors. Now the labels take a large cut from album sales, but thats only because theyve had to stump up 1000’s of $’s or £’s in order for it to be released! I can’t believe how dumb some people are. Indie labels make very little eyeball records has produced some awsome bands that you all still probably love, but you wouldn’t know what label a bands on as you only download the music. If you want the industry to die, carry on creating blogs with these albums for download. If you still want to see your favorite bands release music then once in a while go fucking buy a cd, buy a concert ticket, fuck, buy a friggin t-shirt off them. How would you feel if someone had stolen something you created or spent money on, only to distribute it to anyone or anybody who has a computer?? You’d be pissed off! So he has every right to be as sarcastic or rude as he wants, he’s only asking for whats rightfuly his! What people have been taking is their property, just because someone might own the cd, doesn’t mean they own how to disribute it. It clearly states in the copyright law, that if you purchase a cd you’re not even meant to let anyone else hear it!!!!!! Go check if you don’t believe me!!!

   ASSHOLES

10. On April 19th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
    eek said:

    i think that letter was quite rude, the same message could have been delivered without the threats and anguish it probably caused to that 16 year old girl. luckily we all eventually get what we deserve. you can threaten all the pre-adults you want, but it will do little to benefit your label. most of the people who are well educated enough of the internet who know of blog spots, knew well before that of torrent sites, which are protected by law. there are an endless amount of files opportunities there, that to you would be most likely appalling. p2p servers barely give you shit, if anything, to an indie label their beneficial, seeing how if your bands are really that broke on the road, you’ll only find a song or two on the p2p network, allowing them to preview the band. unfortunetly for you, the majority rules in this world, and the majority doesnt want to spend a dollar a song, or 12 dollars a cd, especially when many on a cd end up being intro, interludes, and exits. if people really liked the bands, and thought the band was deserving of being purchased, theyd buy the cd. all these industry claims just make it more money orientated, when id like to think bands make major commitments over going into music to have their music listened to and loved, not because they see a number attached to it.

11. On April 19th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
    eek said:

    also, downloading the albums won’t kill the music industry, the industry is founded on people who want to create music for real reasons. you could bankrupt every label, and there would still be people driving around in vans just to show everyone what they created, because their proud of it. i would feel delighted if people liked my music enough so that its been spread across the country, which ever way it was done.

12. On April 19th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
    stevey pumpkin said:

    Even with illegal internet pirating independant artists of today are FAR better off than any pre-internet bands ever could have. The internet and blogs like kinixtion and thousandcleverlines provides exposure to people all over the world with the click of a button. What is niave is thinking that bands like the number 12 looks like you who have such limited appeal would be able to build a fanbase large enough to still be recording today without internet exposure, good and bad alike. Sure the label and band would probably be making a little more money without blogs like kinixtion but that amount is most certainly negligible. Besides u cant please all the people all the time and right now those people are the ASSHOLES AT EYEBALL!

    sincerely, Stevey Pumpkin

13. On April 19th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
    stevey pumpkin said:

    oh yeah, Victory records did something similar to a few blogs that i will not mention for fear of feeding them to the wolves on this site. The difference between victory’s request and eyeball’s is that the people at victory records werent complete dicks about it, their letter was very professional, and genuine. They simply asked for their material to be removed and the request was obliged.

    Sincerely, Stevey Pumpkin

14. On April 19th, 2007 at 9:05 pm
    1000cleverlines said:

    yes i agree victory was more polite and their demands were taken very seriously with no trouble. This just pushes it in my opinion….

    also, i goto shows and buy merch all the time. i support bands. i just believe that record companies should give more to bands. I had rarely posted anything from true indie labels.

15. On April 19th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
    will said:

    Wow, this post might even break the Elliott Yamin comment record.

    Honestly, is this what Indie labels have come to? Stooping to major label thugishness of threatening lawsuits…uh, sorry this just leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

    Sites like this are not going to stop and file-sharing will continue to grow. Indie and major labels alike need to come to that realization and move forward.

    Stop wasting time composing threatning letters to 16 y/o girls and spend that time thinking of creative new ways to run your business. Because you have made it perfectly clear that is all it is to you…a business. If it was about the music…well, would we even be discussing this?

16. On April 19th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
    mike said:

    First I do understand how the labels are getting mad, of coarse its because their getting cheated out of their money. And our whole purpose in life is to see “who can get the most money.” But go out there and find ANY band, and ask them where they would be with out music being shared. They would still be at home playing their tiny local shows, making less money than they make now. The evolution of download music has helped SO many bands get known. It gives kids a chance to hear them first, and helps them spread the word of the band. Nobody is going to go out and spend the ridiculous $18 for cd’s now, especially when they have no idea who they are.

17. On April 19th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
    Pirate said:

    In case Marc didn’t know providing links on your site is not illegal seeing as how the copyrighted material is not hosted on your site. With this logic he should go ahead and sue Google.

    You may want to check the facts before spewing bullshit and making yourself look retarded.

18. On April 19th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
    Grant said:

    1) The wording/tone of the letter to Kinixtion was perfectly acceptable. The site owner was not abused and wild accusations were not made. If you think the tongue-in-cheek attitude conveyed was disrespectful, look at the bigger picture here.

    2) Eyeball is perfectly entitled to take a hard line, because whether they knew the owner was a 16 year old girl or not, her actions do necessitate a legal threat.

    3) Everyone here who has suggested that label owners are “assholes” is misinformed and naive. If you were pouring all of your time and energy into promoting a healthy and productive music industry, wouldn’t you feel a little aggrieved if you discovered individuals were distributing your records for free?

    4) There WILL be some impact from the letter. The fact that it had an effect on the first attempt, and even prompted other sites into closure, is enough to show that it works. It may never eradicate illegal file-sharing, but if you look at the 632 downloads of New Atlantic’s album, for example, what if only 5% of those people ended up buying the record instead? That’s over 30 extra copies of the album sold, and more money to continue to fund the band and their label. And if you were in the label’s position, you’d certainly want to recoup your (deserved) profits if all it takes is emailing the occasional website.

    5) The average musician earns less than the national average wage. Why not help them reap the benefits of their work?

    I hope this letter has a great effect on the file-sharing community. I’m all for sampling music but at the end of the day, I’d feel guilty if I didn’t give credit where it’s due.

19. On April 19th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
    EscapeKrypton said:

    Ok sooooo i have a shit load of cd’s Bought myself. I do download music. But i do not believe this is hurting the music industry one bit. I listen to stuff i have never heard before by downloading fall in love with it go see them buy cds and such. I am in a band my self and i would not care if people were downloading my music, infact i would love it. It gets our name out more.

20. On April 19th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
    wake up said:

    Recording labels are under the fallacious assumption that those who download albums would purchase them, if given no other option. There is no one to one correlation here, the majority of bands suck, plain and simple. That is the reason for most labels struggling to make money.

    For small label bands, p2p is by far the best thing that could have happened to them. There are very few of these bands that are able to make a living off of being a band, the biggest impediment is exposure, that’s why they tour tour tour tour tour their asses off (in which case they can take a large percentage of ticket sales and merch sales, at least in most cases). The only way they are going to get the kids to come out to the shows is by getting their music out there, if it is via illegal internet downloading, so be it. Is the label opposed to the direct copying of CDs? How many times in my life have I introduced people to new bands by burning them a copy of an album, the number is more than I can count on my two hands. These are people who would have never heard of the band, never would have gone to their concert, never would have bought an album because they never heard of the band.

    The music industry is a hard business. If you are a band and you expect to make a living off of it, you are delusional. You are lucky to have people willing to support you, period. If you deserve it, the fans will be there, the support will be there, and if you’re lucky maybe some money too. Wake up, get your ass out of your beta-max player.

21. On April 20th, 2007 at 1:49 am
    Peter Gunz said:

    I love how the guy from Eyeball complains about how they work for free, yet they have the money to hire a lawyer to sue this girl on the blog. Most indies don’t have the money to hire a lawyer. So all I have to say is let them write you a second notice or wait till you get a cease and desist letter from a lawyer before you shut down.

22. On April 20th, 2007 at 1:58 am
    GumGum said:

    Well done Eyeball, you’ve just lost the best form of free promotion your bands could ever of wished for. Way to look at the big picture boys, fan downloads album, fan falls in love with band, fan buys album and checks band out live. Pricks With Ears.

23. On April 20th, 2007 at 4:16 am
    yvern said:

    music isnt about the fuckin money. why dont these no good sell out realize that. great bands go on tour and come back home broke then go work at food lion or something for money till they tour again. thats the real shit. you dunno how many times you hear of a band from word of mouth of a friend and download the cd and your at the bands fuckin concert the next week and bought shirts and other cds. haha gg fuckin blow it

24. On April 20th, 2007 at 4:29 am
    kthnxbye said:

    so i guess the music industry isnt about the music anymore, now its about the money…i have so many friends in bands that really dont give a shit about how much money they make playing music, they will play dive bars and clubs for kids and drive around the country in a run down van with just enough $$ to make it where they need to go, because they love what they do, not because of how much money they will make. if you ask me, the best kind of bands are the ones that do everything they do, all the hardwork for their fans, not for the paychecks. and, if somebody in a band was REALLY concerned about making money, wouldnt they have chose a profession that gaurenteed them a comfortable wage? i would think so…and about $35,000 total that is a lot of money but i wonder…how much of that entire amount acutally goes to the band, not a lot thats for sure. its nice to see that labels like eyeball and bands like number 12 are on the page with britney spears…oh greed, is such an entertaining thing!!!

25. On April 20th, 2007 at 6:10 am
    Virgil said:

    Wow, I blown away by the number of comments. I just logged onto my computer about 15 minutes ago and saw over 30 comments to this post. I am glad that this is creating a discussion about music, money, business, and retail prices.

    I run a small label, Suburban Home Records, and I must say that Peer to Peer is really hurting my business. I don’t consider myself greedy when I say this. To give you an example of how this has affected my business, next week, we are moving from an office to my house and cutting over half of our staff because we can’t afford to continue to do this. I know that when my bands tour, people are singing along to almost every song throughout their entire set and I know how many copies of the CD/digital has sold. The numbers do not add up.

    The one thing that needs to be considered is that without labels investing in unknown groups, some of your favorite bands would never have been able to put out the incredible music they put out. It takes thousands of dollars to put a band in a decent studio so that there is a great sounding recording. When labels can’t recoup that money back, they can’t put more money into their label so that they can bring new acts to light.

    I agree with a number of the comments posted especially the ones mentioning their frustration at CD prices. My label offers any 5 Suburban Home releases for $25.00, a cost of only $5.00 per CD. With that amount, my label can make money as can my bands.

    I think peer to peer has some great qualities as you can sample anything you want. I just ask that if you find an act that you absolutely love through file-sharing, why not buy their CD or digital music. Subscribe to a site like Emusic which is only 9.99 a month for 30 drm free mp3s. There are inexpensive options out there and when fans stop buying music all together, indie labels suffer the most.

26. On April 20th, 2007 at 6:20 am
    The Man, The Myth, The Legend said:

    Listen to all the spoiled brats throw a hissy fit. “WAAAAAAAAAAH I CAN’T GET MY MUSIC FREE ANYMORE WHAAAAA EYEBALL RECORDS ARE MEANIE HEADS!!”

    Get over it. Crying over professionalism when you are stealing from someone is pretty hypocritical. I mean, why not just walk up to a cop and punch them in the face and when they are beating the crap out of you, tell them they have to act professional. Good one guys.

    And the “why are they going after a 16 year old girl” bullshit has GOT to stop. ANYONE that has the understanding and ability to build up a blog, rip and upload CD’s, and link them on a website CLEARLY knows what they are doing. 7 year olds are kids. 11 year olds are kids. 16 year olds can drive a car in most states.

    And here’s another one for you braniacs that seem to know it all, why would a little label like Eyeball Records waste their time going after Limewire? Do me a favor right now, go type New London Fire into Limewire and see how many responses you get. Since I know most of you are lazy and incompetent, judging by the fact that you can’t march down to a store and buy a CD, I made the search for you and came up with a big fat NADDA on the search results. So how about them apples? Whodathunk a little ‘ol blog was doing more damage to Eyeball Records than the almighty Limewire? Plus, I think it’s a safe bet that the richer powers of the RIAA are going to be taking care of Limewire shortly, so why should a small label like Eyeball Records waste their resources doing it for them? Use have a brain cell and figure that one out.

    And I am so tired of the sorry, played out line of “how am I going to know if I am going to like it if I can’t hear it first?” Hello jackass, how am I going to know if I like broccoli or sauerkraut before I eat it? You don’t need to listen to an entire album to make that decision. And another bullshit line is “how do I know I’ll like the whole thing?” Please, if I can find an album that has 3-4 songs on it that I love, sign my ass up, that is incredible. I have well over 1200 CD’s (you know, the real thing) in my collection and I don’t even think I need one hand to count the albums that I own that I like EVERY-SINGLE-SONG on. Hell, I don’t even like every song on my favorite bands GREATEST HITS CD, and hello, it’s a GREATEST HITS CD. Who’s the asshole now?

    Another “great argument” is calling the record label greedy and asking how much the band gets out of all the money they want to charge Kinxwhatever. I’ve got a better question for you: how much did The Number 12 Looks Like You have to pay to record, press, distribute and promote any of their Eyeball Records releases? Now I don’t know the band, but I know a lot of bands much, much bigger than them, and I can pretty much assure you it was a big fat ZERO.

    For all you know-it-alls out there, do you have any idea how most labels operate? Why CD sales are so important? And better yet, why the bands don’t see as much profit off the CD’s? Well oh wise keyboard warriors, it’s because record labels are glorified banks, and they give out loans to bands to make music. They front all the money, and the band pays that money back in CD sales. The bands do all the work to make the music, the label does all the work to get it in stores. When they make enough money to pay off the debt required to create the CD, known as “recouping,” the can then start reinvesting money into the band and the band can start making money off the CD.

    That’s called business. Do you know what happens to bands that don’t sell enough CD’s to pay back their loans? It’s the same thing that happens to a home owner if they don’t pay their mortgage: they lose everything. Because whether you give a shit or not, the record label will get their money back one way or another, and that doesn’t make them evil or assholes, it means that they did their part and the band has to hold up on the agreement. Does anyone get mad at the bank when they repossess a car that someone hasn’t been paying for? Absolutely not, what’s right is right.

    So next time your favorite band breaks up, and you’re all sad and mad and glad you bought the TShirt to support them but didn’t buy the CD because the labels are dirty assholes, you might want to rethink your life.

    The sad and unfortunate part in all of this, is that the people that are right in all of this are the assholes, and the people that are wrong are just spewing bullshit line after bullshit line thinking that if they say it enough, people will believe it. Well it’s time you clowns got your facts straight and learned a valuable lesson.

    Justify your actions every way you want, complain about professionalism, complain about global warming, I don’t care, bottom line is: Eyeball Records is right, you are wrong, EVERY-SINGLE-TIME. Period. Case closed. I’ve got two great websites for all of you to check out:

    www.myspace.com/
    www.purevolume.com/

    See the back slash at the end? Try adding your favorite band’s name to it and see if they have a page. Guess what they have there? Songs you can hear! And preview! Some of them even have their entire album streaming!! And videos! Imagine that? If that’s not enough for you, then I guess you’re up shits creak without a paddle.

    I want a lot of things. I want a new car. I want another dog. I want a new camera. I want the new Haste The Day CD. Guess what all of those have in common. Actually, we’ll be here all day if I wait for an answer, so I’ll just tell you: I don’t have a right to have any of them if I don’t buy them.

    Period.

    Would you walk into Best Buy and grab a computer and walk out with it? Would you grab a candy bar and walk out with it? Would you grab a CD and walk out with it? You know, without paying. If you answered no to any of those questions, then why do you think it’s OK to do the same thing on the internet just because it’s easier? And don’t give me that crap of “oh well a car costs way more than a CD, of course that’s wrong.” Would you steal batteries from CVS? A tshirt from Hot Topic? There, I put them in the same price range. Deal with it. And if you answered yes to any of my questions in this paragraph, I guess that just speaks for your character more than anything, and makes the reason this is even a topic for debate more painstakingly obvious.

    Welcome to the real world ladies. The real world is full of things you want and have to work for. Music is NO DIFFERENT. If you can’t afford to buy the CD or go to the shows, then I guess you’re just going to have to settle for the content they give you for free. Because you know, that’s just the way the real world works. I’d love to have season tickets for the Red Sox, but I’ll settle for the two or three games I can afford to go to this year. On the same token, I don’t plan on walking up to Fenway and just walking in without a ticket, either.

    Grow up. All of you. You KNOW the blogs are wrong, you KNOW it’s stealing, and you KNOW the record label is right, EVERY TIME. Deal with it.

27. On April 20th, 2007 at 7:09 am
    Corey said:

    “EscapeKrypton: Ok sooooo i have a shit load of cd’s Bought myself. I do download music. But i do not believe this is hurting the music industry one bit.”

    COME ON! Even though I would like to think half of the above comments were written by the same person using different “names” (unless you all come from some thread in a music pirating forum), this is just terrible. Downloading doesn’t hurt the music industry one bit? And now you are going to tell me that we are not contributing to the warming of the Earth by burning fossil fuels and it’s all just a climate cycle of the Earth.

    If you dig into this blog, you will find that downloading does indeed hurt the music industry a lot. Every aspect of it, even the majors. Sites like the one Eyeball targeted are simply terrible and it sucks that loopholes exist where they can get away with posting “links” because it’s not hosted directly on their server.

    Elliot Yamin sucks!

28. On April 20th, 2007 at 8:10 am
    Stu said:

    It’s all relative really. I’ve bought a number of cds that if I’d been able to hear before hand I wouldn’t have got them. By the same thing, there’s some cds I’ve bought because I’ve heard them through a download.

    Plus it’s not always easy for people to just go out and buy the cd. Sometimes cd’s are hard to find, especially by smaller lesser known artists. Sometimes cd’s aren’t even out in the country someone lives in. Why should someone pay double or more to have it iported when they could just get it downloaded and then buy it if it’s eventually released there?

    People say about looking at the big picture, but the big picture is the world is a very big place and some places have a harder time getting music then others.

    At least through sites like that, people aren’t using stuff like limewire (which I’ve used before and it’s not always accurate, plus there’s a chance someone could get a virus through it).

29. On April 20th, 2007 at 8:11 am
    Bret said:

    I think the letter was bullshit. Eyeball Records really did just lose a fuckload of free advertisement. And they needed all they could get because pretty much every band on the label is shit. Besides, it’s not like one shitty ass letter from some tool is going to stop internet downloading. I am 100% positive that nothing could do that right now. The only thing they did was make sure noone heard their shitty labels music without paying the money that they are trying to leech off kids who barely have the money to eat sometimes. They didn’t take that into perspective, how many of the peoploe who downloaded the cds couldn’t afford to buy them? Fuck you, Eyeball Records.

30. On April 20th, 2007 at 8:25 am
    Tom said:

    Over the last 12 months I’ve been very fortunate to be able to interview some awesome bands who tour there asses off trying to make a living. They almost all agree that P2P and illegal downloads are HURTING them way more than it helps them. Theres been quite a few bands breaking up because they simply can’t sell enough CD’s.

    Also with less people buying music the record labels can’t promote bands as much as they’d like and therefore they aren’t reaching the audience they should. All of you shouting but more people are hearing them because I can get it for free I hate to burst your bubble but less people will be hearing them. Labels are really struggling, if they havent got your support they won’t take chances on any new artists and the music industry will grow stagnate as bands simply can’t afford to put out there own stuff.

    A case in point is a friends band, There about to go into the studio for a second time with a pretty good producer to finish off there EP, the studio time alone will have cost them over £1500 then there going to want to get at least a 500 pressing at £500 and maybe send £100 promoting it, bringing us to a grand total of £2100 ($3900 i think). Safe to say there all broke. Most bands simply can’t afford the studio time, and most bands don’t know the best way to promote themselves and this is where the label comes in. It doesn’t matter if the webmaster is 16 or 60 its still stealing.

31. On April 20th, 2007 at 8:41 am
    IhateMarc said:

    Exposure is the name of the game, and what you’re doing is incredibly lame.

32. On April 20th, 2007 at 9:10 am
    vicki said:

    “Jason Says:

    April 19th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
    im curious as to what everyone’s thoughts are on blogs that post out of print albums without the labels consent? considering they no long print them, would it be a problem? ”

    I don’t think that should be a problem. Once a album is out of print that means that the label isn’t producing the album anymore. So niether the label or the artist are making money off of it right?

    I am on both sides for this.
    For one downloading is a good thing. Espeically for the albums you can’t find in stores or are out of print. If I can’t find something at any of record stores near me then I download it. I will go out and buy sooner or later if it isn’t out of print.
    On the other hand, by downloading albums you can find in stores you are hurting labels and artist. Yes, I have download albums by artist that I can find in stores but I do eventually go out and buy them. I like having the actual thing in my hands.

33. On April 20th, 2007 at 9:13 am
    Your mother said:

    Paulenators blog was shut down before you idiots sent out the letter. Stop thinking you guys are cool.
    Your bands suck hard anyway.

34. On April 20th, 2007 at 9:38 am
    Seth Progression said:

    I think there are more comments here than on the Elliott Yamin thread! Woah. Throw in some juggalos here and we are in business.

35. On April 20th, 2007 at 10:16 am
    Scott said:

    The Man, The Myth, The Legend said everything I wanted to say, only better and funnier.

    Hey kids — grow the fuck up, get a job and use the money you make to buy things you’d like to own. You’re currently sitting in your parents’ house on broadband internet they pay for, eating their food, wearing the clothes they buy for you and essentially leeching off of them until adulthood. You have minimal expenses if any. Stop this bullshit about the prices of CDs. If it’s that big of a deal, buy ‘em used — that way you don’t support the band OR the label (hey, it’s just like illegal downloading!).

    Idiots.

36. On April 20th, 2007 at 10:29 am
    King of Music said:

    Now hows about we here from a real indie pioneer. Ian MacKaye. Here’s what he thinks from an interview at the now defunct downhillbattle.org:

    “NICHOLAS: So what do you think about, with all the technology changes that we’re seeing, how do you feel about people downloading your music from filesharing networks?

    IAN: Oh, I’m happy to have them download the music, it doesn’t bother me at all, because that’s why I made the music, because I want people to hear it, that’s it, that’s the point. And obviously, someone selling it? They’re fucked. But that would just be another example of the sort of avarice and greed that exist in this music world.
    “Any way that Fugazi or any band on Dischord or any kind of underground music, any way we have for people to be able to check it out and have access to the world at large, I’m all for.”

    HOLMES: You mean if someone’s copying your music and selling your songs …

    IAN: Yeah, if someone’s selling downloads and collecting money for our songs I would be unhappy about that but if they’re trading it I don’t mind, obviously if I make a thousand records or CDs or whatever, I like to sell a thousand. I don’t need all the plastic. Obviously I would like people to support us, that’d be great. But at the end of the day, I’d rather people hear the music. You know I don’t own any Bob Dylan music, well actually I think I do, but you know when I was growing up I didn’t, but I certainly knew his music because of the radio, I didn’t pay for that. I only mention him because I just mentioned him, I’m not saying like “Oh he’s a huge Bob Dylan fan”, I’m just saying that I do have respect for a lot of his work, and I’m glad to have been able to hear it and I think radio is so crucial to be able to have that. And frankly, though I actually recently got DSL, which has certainly helped in the terms of downloading songs, and I found the process a little bit frustrating because everyone seems to be putting up ‘in the joint’ or ‘get the pay’ or whatever, but when I first heard about napster, and those kinds of things, the orignal napster, the idea of having a resource where you could hear music– it was a giant resource library– was so intoxicating to me. I thought it was the most amazing thing in the world. Most music will never be made available commercially because it just doesn’t make any sense for it to be made available commercially, you’ll never sell enough copies to merit it, but I want to hear Hendrix practicing something, I want to hear a weird Al Jolson recording, I want to hear these things. The idea of going to a computer and listening to them once or twice like you heard them on the radio I think is incredible. But if I downloaded something and it just blew my mind, you’d better believe I’d go and try and find the fucking record if I could, if one existed. So from my point of view, any way that Fugazi or any band on Dischord or any kind of underground music, any way we have for people to be able to check it out and have access to the world at large, I’m all for. Obviously the major labels have, at this time at least, have fairly sewn up the avenues of the media, they own it all so obviously they have it all sewn up– obviously it’s not a coincidence that on new years eve ABC TV had their New Year’s Rockin’ Eve with Dick Clark reporting from Times Square, which is sort of the traditional new years thing, but they also reported in from Disneyworld, but they’re owned by Disney! So of course, that’s why suddenly disneyland is the same thing as Times Ssquare. It’s all so disgusting. So the idea that somebody in wherever, whether they’re in a small town somewhere in the middle of america or in Pakistan or whatever, if they’re interested, and they want to check out Fugazi, I want it out there. I don’t want them to have to pay some service to get to it and listen to it and hopefully that would compel them to do further research. I mean, how cool would it be to know that there’s some kid in Pakistan who downloaded all our records and listens to them all the time– I’m happy, I don’t give a damn. I mean the argument against it is always just monetary, and again, that’s the least interesting aspect of music for me.

    HOLMES: So, you just said that you see networks like that as a library, as a resource, but other people, not all people, but some people see the music they make as their property and they’re worried that if we don’t lock it down, there won’t be an incentive to create more music. And some folks in the music industry are actually saying that the music industry’s decline means that music is in decline.
    “I may have written the song, so I think, ‘I authored that song’ but it’s not property, it’s not property for anybody!”

    IAN:I don’t agree with that at all, either one of those sentiments. If people lose their incentive to make music because they’re not making money, they’re not musicians. They’re business people. Musicians don’t have a choice in the matter, you gotta make music. There’s no choice! It’s not a fucking job description, there’s no choice! You make music because it’s what you do and the idea that it’s sort of like saying that, “Well, this person is an artist, they’re a painter, but because they can’t sell their paintings they’re going to quit.” If they do, they’re not artists! They’re business people. I have to say that I feel like music, when I make music, the creation aspect of it, that may be my experience. I may have written the song, so I think, “I authored that song” but it’s not property, it’s not property for anybody! Now if I make a record, if I make a CD of that song, that’s property because I paid to make it. And if I sell that property, the money that comes back is my money– I’ll take that money and I’ll share it with the other people involved in making that CD. But this is my position: you can sell CDs, you can sell records and tapes, and you can sell mini-discs if you’re foolhardy, and you can sell mp3s and digital downloads, you can sell all of these things, but you can’t sell music because music is free. I’m serious about that. I really believe that. Music is like air, you can’t sell it. I know that people have, not to fall back to my oft-used metaphors and analogies, but this is the way I process things, but I see music as a river, and the water in a river is there for everyone and anyone that wants to have a sip can have a sip and have some water. Now somewhere along the line someone came up with the idea of putting the river water in bottles and selling the bottles of water. That’s the record industry. Music is a river, music is water, and the bottling company is the industry, and it’s not inherently evil, because it’s frankly, convenient to have water in a bottle, so if you’re driving in your car and you’re thirsty you don’t have to drive to the nearest river and take a sip, you can just reach down and take a sip out of your bottle. The same way if I’m driving in my car and I want to hear a song, I don’t have to drive over to the people’s house and ask them to play it for me, I can put the CD in and listen to it, or turn on the radio. Where it gets ugly is that when the bottling company, since their aim is to make money– at some point they may have thought like, “Let’s bottle this water and that way we can share the healthful qualities of water with all the people.” At some point it becomes, “This is our industry, we need to make money, and how can we increase profits?” Well, the way to increase profits is to try to discourage people from going to the river, and having to buy the bottled water. And they’ll start with that but eventually what they’re going to get into is they’re going to start blocking the river or they’re going to poison the river. But water is always moving, and it’s very difficult to poison a river, very hard indeed. And that’s the good news about music, it can’t be stopped, it will always happen, people will always make music, and regardless of whether or not there’s money to be made form it or not, it’s still going to happen, it can’t be stopped. So in my mind with the sales of records, the industry has done their best to claim ownership of music but they don’t– they only own the things that they sell, so when people who are songwriters say, “That’s my property and if you give it away for free then I lose my incentive,” then, well, good riddance.”

    Well, now we know that you are greedy bastards in the eyes of some indie musicians.

37. On April 20th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
    John-Michael Bond said:

    Wow. Just wow man. Ian is in a different situation than Eyeball. Ian has money. Is he a multimillionaire? No. But he’s sold, yes little Tommy SOLD, a fuck load of records. Fugazi, Jawbox, Shudder to Think etc made him a pretty penny, even selling his records for 10 or 8 bucks a pop. Having money, owning your own house makes things a little different.

    The difference between what Ian is talking about and the real world *you’ll learn about this once you get out of your parents house) is bills. Music will always exist. Fuck dude I could buy a $200 four track and have a new free record up every week. But I couldn’t tour off that. I couldn’t print shirts. I couldn’t live off of it.

    Oh and last of all. SHE IS 16. OH NO! OH WAH! She’s grown up enough to fuck over a lot of bands I love. She can deal with a slap on the wrist.

38. On April 20th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
    Chris Vandeviver said:

    What a bunch of twerps! It kills me how angry these individuals get over this. Look-

    If I, being 23 years old– having phone bills, rent, electric bills, grocery needs, in need of money to hang out with my girlfriend and friends, have to scrape up cash to buy a laptop, music equipment, books, etc etc– can handle paying for CDs (all on a near minimum wage job!!), I think you can all do the same. Since there is a good chance most of you suck your parents dry for whatever it is you think you need money for, in lieu of your music consumption, you’re kidding yourself. Sure, downloading is helpful for getting a band recognized on a broader scale. But with Myspace, and Purevolume, and iTunes, and label websites, and- well, the list goes on- I don’t think it’s been all that difficult a time anymore for you folks to find out if you like a band.

39. On April 20th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
    Megan said:

    :( Assholes.

40. On April 20th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
    .. said:

    i bet alot of the people bitching about how downloading hurts the people who make the music are in really crappy bands i.e. the number 12 looks like you, there should be a fucking lawsuit about bands ripping off other bands. the number 12 needs to turn off the fall of troy albums and write their own shit.

41. On April 20th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
    alice said:

    This is ridiculous.

    How are you going to go after the blogs that are creating the buzz around your bands? It’s rather cutting off your nose to spite your face. And it’s not going to work.

    I’m pro-downloading. Most of the music I listen to now I’ve found through downloading. And I’ve spent a lot of money on pursuing the artist’s music: tickets to gigs, cds bought later (after hearing downloads), merchendise etc etc. I wouldn’t even have heard of half of it without downloading: struggling artists and underground bands are exposed to a wider audience, and are often given the breaks and popularity they wouldn’t have gained otherwise.

    It’s not exactly the artist who complains about downloading, the artist makes roughly a dollar for each record sold and that is split up within the band. It’s the record labels who bitch about not getting that $1 from that CD. The bands themselves benefit from gig-tickets and merchandise more than from CDs, anyway.

    Incidentally, all the abuse from (largely) the anti-downloaders in these comments rather cheapens their ’superior’ moral high-ground and ‘get-over-it’ music professional ‘tudes. Have that.

42. On April 20th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
    Kristen said:

    This has got to be the most idiotic thing ever.
    The only reason half these bands even have a fanbase is because of sites like these.
    People don’t pirate music with an intention of hurting bands, or to be a “rebel”, or some stupid crap like that.
    We do it because we love music. Despite what anyone thinks, we cannot control it.
    Newsflash: YOU CANNOT GET HALF THE STUFF WE DOWNLOAD IN STORES.
    How else are we supposed to get it?
    I have purchased over 100 CDs.
    And it’s all mostly mainstream stuff because that’s all they sell around here. Boo hoo. Your losing some money. But your bands are gaining fans.
    Oh, and how unfair is it you assume the # times accessed for The Number 12 & New London Fire?
    If it’s unknown, you cannot just assume in attempt to get more money out of it.
    She’s a 16 year old girl who likes music and wants to share her knowledge with people.
    Don’t be so hard-headed,

43. On April 20th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
    jason said:

    “She’s a 16 year old girl who likes music and wants to share her knowledge with people.”

    There are plenty of people like this who only post one or two songs at most (see Aversiononline.com) and yet are ENTHUSIASTIC about music. There are ways to promote music without hurting artists. Using her age is a simple cop out and she clearly knows what she is doing by putting this music up for people to check out. I remember back when I was 15, maybe 16, I had a small blog that no one read and I would post MP3s that I wanted people to check out. I knew what I was doing and even though I was only posting one or two songs, I still wanted to get the word out to people.

    Yes, I download music but I also buy tons of CDs still. I go to one to two shows a week, spend too much money on vinyl/shirts and all that stuff as well. I know that is a terrible excuse but unfortunately it’s the current state of things.

    It’s not even a matter of the label being hard on the girl, it’s a matter of teaching people the important of copyrights. An artist has the right to protect how they want their material to be distributed. Sure, there are bands using Creative Commons and allowing people to share music, and more power to them if they decide to do that. But kids need to understand exactly the law they are breaking by distributing something that isn’t theres to distribute.

44. On April 20th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
    from561to678andback said:

    To everyone out here I hear your point on either side of the monetary issue. I record bands for a living out of my studios in Atlanta, GA and West Palm Beach, FL and what I’ve come to say has nothing to do with these ethics but more to do this love I have for music. In my industry I get to see first hand how labels and bands correlate. My whole career is based on my love for music, and unfortunately coincides with my necessity to survive. I would do what I do for free and have in the past. My personal goal is to be able to find the midway point between these extremes to ultimately allow the people to find unknown bands and fall in love with them. I was a frequent visitor to kinixtion, tramalikerain, and cdscompletosdownloads among others and I found some of the most amazing bands I’ve heard and I can safely say that these mediums need to exist. Every so often I would download an album, start contacting the band to tell them they have my support and actually convinced many of them to book dates in my town(s) on tour based solely on the support I would have for them by spreading the word. It only takes a spark to start an inferno, but the fuel needs to be these blogs. Thank all of you for your thoughts. Any questions go to tramalikerain.blogspot.com and leave me a comment. Thank you!

45. On April 20th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
    catie said:

    Eyeball records is horrible anyway.

46. On April 20th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
    Uhhh said:

    You all are stupid. This is one idiotic argument. Bands make music for people to hear it. If people hear by downloading it then so what. The record labels go bankrupt. Bands break up. ……….. People will find a way. If they love making music. If you want to hear it. There will be some kind of change maybe a shift from record labels to something completely different. But for now all you can is argue apparently.

47. On April 20th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
    Devin said:

    Yea you show those people who like the music. You fuss them out and piss them off. That’ll make your record sales go up.

48. On April 20th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
    Eyeball Records - Music Banter said:

    […] Eyeball Records …sucks the c0ck. IndieHQ [Eyeball Records brings down music blog/pirating site, Kinixtion] Anyway it’s got me think that musicbanter is sharing based not greediness or laziness but out of like love you know. And with new admin and shit like this I don’t know if that will always be. I honestly think that sharing promotes buying. I wouldn’t listen to 99% of what I listen to if it wasn’t for stealing. __________________ We drink cause we’re lonely. We fuck to stay warm. […]

49. On April 20th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
    untitled said:

    this is ridiiculous. loads of people download things to see if they like it. then, they just go out and buy the album if they enjoy it. this is all so dumb. i don’t care if they’re IS morons out there downloading and not buying albums but most people don’t so eff you.

50. On April 20th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
    Scott said:

    “i don’t care if they’re IS morons out there downloading and not buying albums but most people don’t so eff you.”

    Looks like we found one of those morons right here.

51. On April 20th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
    Erik's Manthong said:

    So somewhere within neo-Maddox’s tyrannical rant, I did get a better understanding for how a record label works. Oh and that walking into Best Buy and walking out with a new HP is bad.

    Hey asshole, you’re speaking to an audience of deaf ears. Where there’s a will, there’s a way. Congrats, you’ve upstaged idiots trying to defend a 16 year old who can’t learn (or claims, it seems) right from wrong. In otherwords, you’ve pissed off pirates who will just learn from their mistakes, and share in smarter methods. Have I pirated things before?

    I’ve downloaded music for free before, and I’ve sure as hell bought music before. Infact, I’ve made more purchases on music because I was able to preview their works before shelling out the cash for something that could have been a waste of money and anticipation. Make sure to reread that, and then consult your multi-paragraph of PMS semi-intellectual horse shit, and see if someone hit your bulletproof argument right on the nose. I will feed you the line about “how will I know I’ll like it, or the entire CD?” because its 100% true.

    You say you shouldn’t own a car that you didnt buy, but what if 2 drives into it, you discover that, because you didnt take enough time to really get a look at what you bought, you really don’t like the interior, and will be unsatisfied now with that purchase? Yeah I feel the same way when a highly anticipated album is about to hit, and I dish out money to hear 3 amazing tracks, 7, sub-par tracks, and 4 filler/weird instrumentals? Now, Im only taking a $10-15 piece of plastic to a large scale argument because you did. Mr. High and Fucking Mighty, I downloaded Billy Talent’s self titled and decided, because I got so into it, that I really should put money towards people who deserve it. Another example: my CD art for Fear Before The March of Flames’ “Art Damage” was destroyed, and I decided that because this band was someone I really hoped to see suceed and earn a living doing what they love, that I’d pay another $14 to have another CD along with a new booklet with pictures of a shower drain with blood in it, a sky, and a few other arbitrary images on top of lyrics here and there.

    Not good enough? Well not only did I buy 2 releases by TNTLLY after hearing a song from each, I have hit every show that they play in my area since Nuclear.Sad.Nuclear. hit stores. Oh and bought a shirt each time. So if that’s not good enough to feed the starving execs, I am sorry. Really, I actually am, because I do what I can to support bands who I think deserve a shot to make the music they love on top of great experiences along with a positive following and a comfortable financial situation (because I know musicians/labels can hit rock bottom or see the top of the world with some risks). That wasn’t intended as a sarcastic remark either, I respect and feel for you guys, I really do. Thats some impressive, risky and more often than not scary shit you guys do, and you don’t get the credit you deserve. I respect the bands just the same, and can honestly apologize and feel like dirt for having downloaded anything illegally from them or their labels. I haven’t acquired enough legally to make an individual impact (like aforementioned 16 year old girl), but am aware that I’ve taken part in a worldwide unfair fight to the music production industry.

    I guess you can only say people can do what they can, but either way I’m just trying to offer insight towards the people who wont see both sides. You didn’t win anything with your huge factual storm, you just bored me among others. I will continue to support downloading, but tell me how you can download a show ticket, a T-Shirt, or the actual CD inserts printed on special paper? Yeah you can’t. And I won’t try if it’s not worth doing so. I wouldn’t have any pride wearing my limited edition Genghis Tron shirt if I didnt pre-order Dead Mountain Mouth last June. I will probably continue to download things, but only as a sampling measure. Until then, to the bigmouths such as the one on this page, I’m sorry you probably camped all day after that tedious response looking for someone to combat. Talk about a worthless uphill battle. To the labels, I’m sorry you guys are getting raped, I really am. But to you and the bands, when I hear those amazing songs, I buy your shit. I promise.

52. On April 20th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
    Lisa said:

    Wow, I doubt my comments will be seen but anyway….

    I see both sides. I think the letter could have been more professional and maybe people wouldn’t think the writer was an ass. But he did have a right to ask that the blog be removed. Saying it was in violation woulda been sufficient, I think, but I guess sounding this way made it sound more important.

    Before the internet, I would spend a fortune on CDs only to find ONE song was all I wanted. I assumed the majority of the CD would be good, but in most cases, I was wrong (unless it was a greatest hits CD). Some people can’t work for whatever reason and don’t get paychecks, so they can’t run out and buy every new CD they want. Nowadays you can preview a CD in the store, but what about those with social phobias who can’t stand in the middle of an aisle jamming?

    But now we have MySpace and PureVolume to check the songs out. Though, what’s stopping people from using an audio program to record those songs from those sites? They wouldn’t upload them to the net for others to download, but they could save it and not buy a CD. That’s wrong, but nobody yells about it.

    Some bands LIKE being stars on the net. They like being talked about and praised for their music, they ask that people buy the CD, they say TO share the music so they can get known. Others don’t do that. All depends on the artist.

    Since I don’t buy a lot of music because of financial issues (I don’t work but I also refuse to be on welfare to have others pay FOR me), so it’s great to be able to sample some before I buy it (and yes, I do buy CDs if I KNOW it’ll be money well spent). I’ve bought so many CDs I never even listen to more than once, and can’t afford that anymore. I’m glad I have the chance to sample tunes and check out bands I’ve enver heard of before.

    One gripe is that record companies complain that nobody buys CDs, yet I buy one and it has a one-sided sheet (the album cover art) and no lyrics or info of any kind. Make an effort! Put the lyrics and some photos so people have something to look at with their new CD. This happens with popular bands, too. There’s no reason to stick in a simple sheet of paper that’s blank on one side and not make any attempt at a nice presentation. Sure you can download the lyrics and photos from the booklet online, but I like having them in my CD. I’ve always liked that. I’ve actually based my CD choices on how thick the booklet looked.

    But just as the CD buyers rip off the industry, it works both ways. Some stores have a CD for $5 and another has it for $18. How is that fair? Where does the other money go? Who pockets the difference? And what about tape trader stores? If I buy a new CD for full price and go into a bargain store and find it for $2, I’m gonna be a bit annoyed. Should it be fair to sell and resell CDs? The second sale isn’t going to the band, so if I buy it used or download it, the industry doesn’t get a cent, anyway. Why do the stores stay in business?

53. On April 20th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
    Aaron. said:

    lost my business. Records from this label can easily be found all over the internet.

    Google: “band name” “file sharing service”

    sue google? see how far you get? assfucks.

    You can’t do anything about it, the people who have already downloaded the album, will upload it to more interested listeners, and more, and more, and the cycle continues.

    you’ll lose the case, as you will lose many others along your path to “defeat this problem”, and hopefully you’ll go out of business when all your artists flock to other labels because of the bad reputation you’ve received.

    If you want to support the ARTIST buy their merch, not their cds, let’s strangle these fuckers back into reality, the music industry has changed, you dumb fucks just don’t want to accept it.

54. On April 21st, 2007 at 12:13 am
    Andrew said:

    I will now never EVER buy any item from eyeball records. However, it seems that Eyeball records only puts out pure shit, so they my as well take those downloads down. But why are we going after blogs that don’t even post shit off of eyeball records? This is ridiculous. Oh and good luck getting any of your bands exposure. You need the internet (and downloading) to survive.

    Good luck cunts.

55. On April 21st, 2007 at 12:15 am
    Andrew said:

    Etcetera forums has already removed their downloads section in response to thee above. No action is necessary against them, it is now simply a forum.

56. On April 21st, 2007 at 1:51 am
    [iskra] said:

    its so fuckin stupid, this is not punkrock, this is not hardcore, its stupid capitalism! ive seen eyeball records also released an “milemarker” album…whoow how will they think about it? ive seen them several times as an strictly political band, ive seen them destroying a credit card as a sign against capitalistic greed.

    culture, music, art has to be free! to support an artist is important, but it shouldn’t run in an economic order! there are much more ways for supporting an artist! if culture, music, art is just another product, its worthless and i wouldnt support it at all! there should be passion not the thought for getting paid!
    i pay so much, maybe everything i have for culture, books, records, art whatever…but i dont have that much money! if i can get an album for free from friends or whatever and i really like it, sooner or later i would buy it! but i would stop buying from an label who say all their musiclovers are criminals when they cant pay for it and still want to listen to it!

    its a shame that even an small indie label thinks the methods and the greedy way of thinking of the major music companys is alright! after this i wouldnt be supportive at all!

    another really bad bad thing are all these hypocrites here, who list some small musicblogs…you are just lame-ass traitors and squealer! get an job by your local police station and beat up some poor beggars!

57. On April 21st, 2007 at 1:52 am
    ZK said:

    Here what i gotta say to these record companies. The music industry has changed tremendously within the past four-five, where companies, labels and most importantly BANDS, are utlizing the internet in order promote and sell their music. In my opinion the internet is the music business now. With itunes and all the others, more people buy their shit over the net then they do from an actual store. But despite the readyness that is seemingly available through sites, only a handful of artist gain market use of these sites, while many unknowns are left in the dust. With the utilzation of the internet (i.e. blogs, file-sharing programs …whatever) I have been introduced to such a vast amount of music that i would not have known about if itunes and god forbid mtv and vh1 (which “You Outta Know” portions are filled with horrilbly mudane and nearly identical artists) were my only outlets. Yes, I realize that by downloading ilegally, we are hurting the bands and the labels, but i have to argue, that in my case because of this downloading, i have purchased more albums, more merchandise and gone to more shows then most people in thier lifetimes. And point in fact, Bands typically get more money from thier merchandise then they do from album residuals. However, I am one of the lucky ones, living in one of the musical cultural stews of America, California, where music is much more acessible to me then individuals in the heartland and other countries. Most of those kids don’t often get the chance to see their favorite bands, or even here of many bands at all. Trust me I grew up back east and the only thing i had their was the top forty countdowns at night. My question is, how are labels and bands going to match the amount of exposure that these file sharing outlets have given. Not too many people have the free time to browse through the internet, look for every major and indie label that is around and go to each band, past and present and see what they would like to buy nor would they have the time to flip through the radio stations and hope to God that they find a station not playing the same five songs over and over again. By completly ridding the internet of these outlets (which i don’t think will ever happen) you deny virtually any amount of exposure that has come from this sites. Lets ask eyeball records to tell all their artist to shut down all their websites, myspaces, purevolumes and what ever other internet functions and see how the label will last on basic promotion or better yet lets just see how they’ll do now, because I would argue that most people don’t even know who the fuck eyeball records is, at least in my case, i didn’t even know until i saw promotion for the label on some of these sites. The labels need these programs and sites, look at Napster for godsakes, they got rid of it but brought it back because it was marketable, but i bet it is not as nearly effective as it was when it first came out and i bet record sales have gone decreased even more since the record companies and “certain bands” who should shut the fuck up, butt their noses into it and compared twelve year old kids to terroists, driving people away. Bands should be happy that people are listening to their music and going to their shows and buying their merchandise, trust me i am a musician too, and i know how hard it is, but lets face the COLD HARD TRUTH: COMPANIES, LABLES AND BANDS, NEED LISTENERS IN ORDER TO CONTINUE, and when you make it harder for people to listen, LABELS and BANDS suffer, not us. Sure, take away the music, it doesn’t bother me none, becuase I don’t need to hear bands music, bands need me to hear their music and promote and support them. So lets see how well you’ll do Eyeball after all this, that is, after all the money you get from the little girl. Just pray lables that someone has the williness to listen, because you benefit from the album sales, but lets see how well you do when you have bands no one even knows. In the meantime, i am going to import/burn some friends cd’s onto my itunes, because if this outlet is gone, i always have another, and remember there is always blank cassette tapes in the end!

58. On April 21st, 2007 at 1:57 am
    Anon said:

    U guys are fucking whores… they put a disclaimer up there, after downloading, i really do buy if the album is good… what fuckers

59. On April 21st, 2007 at 3:47 am
    elly said:

    i have a band.. and my opinion.. label were the pirate to all bands!!! fuck you eyeball records!! label just making money from the band.. u should asshame u basterd tweet!
    LABEL = KING OF PIRATE!! FUCK YOU!

60. On April 21st, 2007 at 4:15 am
    mark said:

    record labels are greedy and want has much money has possible downloading albums does not really affect sales an example would be machine heads the blackening in which you could download a full 2 months before release and went on to be the biggest selling album for the band after it’s origional release date.
    I also add that i download albums and i do this to find out if i like them if i don’t i don’t waste my money if i do i go and buy the album and support the band by seeing them on tour or buying merch.
    Plus if there gonna stop this then they might has well try and sue people for lending or ripping a cd for a mate, there will allways be way to share music.

61. On April 21st, 2007 at 4:29 am
    vih said:

    I really comply with you from eyeball records,about going after those blogs and everything that ‘can go against your laws’,but it’s really impossible catchin’ all those blogs around.You should really look on others side,i actually live in Brazil,and cd’s here are really,really expensive, especially the new ones,are about R$35,i’m one of the guys that download the record first,and if I liked it,i actually buy.Just for that,I think you should run after guys that post cd’s that weren’t even released by you,that’s fair.I really enjoy helping small bands buying their cd’s,thats fair,specially if they’re good.

62. On April 21st, 2007 at 4:59 am
    [iskra] said:

    maybe we all should stop buying records from labels like this! fuck eyeball records!!! its a shame that these people say they are independent, alternative, underground or whatever! they are as big and as greedy as these big major companies! i can understand that you want to make a living out of it, but this should work without to threat people with law! these people love the music maybe as much as the label and the internet culture has changed the world of culture, music, art and their distribution! art should be no product, it should be expression available for everyone!!! i really thought that every artist just wants to be heard?!

    but eyeball records just want to sell everything? shame on you!

63. On April 21st, 2007 at 6:04 am
    robbie said:

    Yeah it’s just like those bastards playing their instruments on the street corner, why should they expect us to throw money at them when I can listen to them play for free, they’re not in it for the music, they just want to guilt us into getting them another meal.

    You people are idiots. Have any of you ever tried running a small business, can any of you in good conscience say that you would not be a little angry if you were running a label and you were put you in the same situation? These people make a living off music, and you don’t make a living giving things away for free or nearly free, there has to be some profit made. Does making money or having a job make you “capitalist slime”? Do you people take 90% of your paycheck and just give it all to the first person you see? I’m sorry but these people gotta eat, and I’m sure they’re not driving around sports cars and living in million dollar homes (I think Virgil drives a taurus). But so what if they want to, I mean the audacity for them to want some luxury in their humble lives by asking you to pay for some music they put their heart and soul into to get out.

    The fact all you people are turning on eyeball and their actions in general sickens me to no end, I think you must all have guilty consciences.

64. On April 21st, 2007 at 7:27 am
    Sami said:

    I think it’s a sad day when it comes to these petty arguments. I regularly download music, and it’s not like it means I buy less music - you should see the massive stack of CDs I own. I just bought the Suburban Home 50 for 50 deal, ffs, even though I live in the UK and had to pay for shipping over.

    The music world is changing. This will be going ahead, no matter how many sites you take down. What you should be doing is trying to work with the new technology, not destroying any form of it the first chance you get. Like try to get all these sites to make sure they only put up really bad quality rips, and a link to buy the CD so if they like it, they can… stuff like that.

    Use your brains!

65. On April 21st, 2007 at 7:49 am
    Randy said:

    For the record, if Ian MacKaye has money ands own his own home, it’s because of dedication to his craft, perserverance, and the ability to create music that is good, thus well-received.

    The last thing I want to do as a consumer is buy shitty CD’s from shitty bands. All that does is create a false sense of buzz that the record labels pick up on and sign thousands of crappy bands. The labels have created their own problem by making financial commitments to bands that, honestly, don’t have a chance due to their inability to create good music that people actually want to hear. Downloading (which I agree should be done for “preview” purposes only) is the only chance a band has these days of creating a fan base. Major labels, indie labels, it doesn’t matter. Concentrate on signing good bands that can create three or four succesful albums that people will actually want to hear (and buy, and support live).

    The flaws in the industry are YOUR fault - not the consumers. We’re smarter than you think. I can’t trust a label like Victory, who promotes almost all their bands as the next “big thing”, when they know damn well almost every artist on their label is average at best. Why do you want us to not actually hear your bands before we buy their albums? The answer? You want to sucker-punch as many teenage scensters as you can by making them fill your pockets by spending their money on crap. Check yourselves - your business plans - and your greed-driven plans to destroy good music. You’re the one fucking us over, not vice-versa.

66. On April 21st, 2007 at 8:06 am
    Randy said:

    …and to answer Robbie, my conscience is perfectly clean.

    I work just as hard at my job as does any active musician. Guess what - I get paid after successful completion of my job. Not just completion - SUCCESSFUL completion. If I suck at my job, I won’t have that job for long. There’s a big difference between doing something and doing something WELL. If I displease my boss, he has every right to reprimand me and even fire me. The labels need to follow that philosophy. Just because you chug out as many records as possible doesn’t mean you’ve done your job. We, the consumers, want SUCCESSFUL albums that are worth our investment. It’s the “job” of the label exec to ensure that happens. Get your head out of your asses and quit singing me your “poor, starving artists” song. Good albums will create good sales - despite what you think the internet and downloading has done to your forlorn industry. Impress me (and the rest of us music listeners) and we will buy any product worth the investment. Guaranteed.

67. On April 21st, 2007 at 8:40 am
    harrharr said:

    In light of this, it looks like I’ll be “buying” the next Number 12 record from a different “store”

68. On April 21st, 2007 at 9:17 am
    Dave said:

    RANDY YOUR THE RADDEST!! COULDN”T SAY IT ANY BETTER

69. On April 21st, 2007 at 10:11 am
    sb said:

    I go with jason, you have got to stop downloading or you’ll just ruin everything for everybody who likes music. I don’t enter you’re house and steal do I. And the possibillity that the guy is a fat ass is completely unrelated with the fact that it’s wrong to download music. The music is not yours it’s their fucking music, you do not make the music. They own the rights, they put money into it so they can make more music that you could listen to. If you don’t buy their music they can make music only for themselves.

70. On April 21st, 2007 at 12:28 pm
    jason said:

    [iskra] - “i can understand that you want to make a living out of it, but this should work without to threat people with law! ”

    THESE PEOPLE ARE BREAKING THE LAW! what is so hard to understand about that? it is not that girls right to distribute the music. whoever holds the copyright has the right to distribute it however they damn well please, so unless it is released under Creative Commons or a similar license, it isn’t theres to give away for free in the first place. it’s not this girls property and so she can’t just give it away!

71. On April 21st, 2007 at 12:39 pm
    Coolkid said:

    hi, would someone give me probably a few thousand bucks so I can go purchase every single CD that I see that might interest me? Please? Pretty please?

72. On April 21st, 2007 at 1:38 pm
    Cody said:

    I think, of all people, an indie label executive should know the power of the internet and word-of-mouth. It sickens me to see label executives, especially indie label executives, try and fight against the river of technology. Quite frankly, you cannot and will not win, and, if anything, with the right attitude and approach, you can benefit from file sharing. Blog downloads only account for a miniscual fraction of all downloads, and typically speaking these are the true-blue fans who care enough to go out and find the music that they love. You could use these blogs to advertise your label, upcoming shows, new merchandise, and just generally expand your fanbase, but all in one fell swoop you just made everyone hate your essence. Music isn’t free, but music isn’t yours Mr. Bigshot Label Executive, and don’t act like the music wouldn’t go on just fine without you. Labels are conviniences, and if they are no longer so convinient in the digital age, then maybe it’s time you realize your place and start embracing the new face of music. I’m sure your pocketbooks speak louder than my words, but the loudest speakers are rarely the truest.

    Sincerely,
    Cody

73. On April 21st, 2007 at 4:25 pm
    ema said:

    weak!!!!!
    i can understand getting pissed that your album isn’t selling because people just download it for free. but you shouldnt be forced to buy some crap album just because people are being crybabies about the whole situation. the majority of albums i buy you cannot hear on the radio. i am not just randomly going to throw money at you. if i like an album, i buy it on vinyl. if not then i probably just delete the crappy mp3s.

74. On April 21st, 2007 at 4:30 pm
    Ryan F. said:

    When Lars Ulrich went to such neurotic lengths as to track the Gnutella users who were downloading Metallica albums so as to attempt to bring them to court–it was half expected to say the least (especially for a machismo drummer in an über-rich band that is getting out-wailed by kids a third of his age). But when someone with pretensions to indie-rock takes this form of machismo to a 16 year old girl, what is there left to say but that the word “Indie” has been made at least as meaningless as the word “music” is when applied to Metallica. I pretty much agree with everything people have been saying about music blogs being one of the best ways for lesser known bands to gain exposure, in addition to it being something that will lead to more support where it counts–namely, concerts, concert commodities, etc. However, those who privilege the Law over music are confusing obedience with art and the support of artists. When I spend money on an album or the cost of a ticket, I like knowing that it’s going to an artist and not a record label that’s willing to sic their lawyer-dogs on teen-agers.

75. On April 21st, 2007 at 5:13 pm
    zrc said:

    i really don’t think that removing download links is gonna boost sales at all, so why bother, just because you took down a link to one of your bands (and i must admit most of the signed bands are bullshit), doesn’t mean people aren’t going to download it. i also think it’s fucking weak how you guys claim it’s to put food in some kids mouth, fuck off, i got no sympathy, if you’re going to be a musician (talented or not in the case of eyeball), deal with it. another fact is that, if eyeball even won a court case, not a cent of the money would go to the band, and nor would sales increase, just because you shut some fucking blogs down. why waste the time and effort trying to increase sales in such a petty manner, and try and act as if you’re so fucking righteous and that you actually give a shit if some little kid gets dinner (which in the circumstances is the most sympathy whoring statement). maybe if you’re such martyrs you should spend the money you get from this and go feed kids in africa.

76. On April 21st, 2007 at 6:52 pm
    Jason said:

    “i can understand getting pissed that your album isn’t selling because people just download it for free. but you shouldnt be forced to buy some crap album just because people are being crybabies about the whole situation. the majority of albums i buy you cannot hear on the radio. i am not just randomly going to throw money at you. if i like an album, i buy it on vinyl. if not then i probably just delete the crappy mp3s.”

    Does that mean when you go into a restaurant, order a dish you’ve never had before and don’t really like it, you walk out of the place without paying your check? Every time?

77. On April 21st, 2007 at 7:43 pm
    Grant said:

    Here’s what this all boils down to. Forget about the tangibles and intangibles, forget about what percentage of people buy music as a result of downloading first, forget about all that shit. What happened here is a girl was distributing music illegally. One of the labels she ripped off wrote to her to get her to stop. She did. Why are we still discussing this?

78. On April 21st, 2007 at 9:47 pm
    Jack said:

    We are still discussing this because it is obvious that a set of technologies are evincing the fact that the mode of production of music is in a period of transition. Labels like Eyeball apparently seem to feel pretty insecure about this and are pulling the conservative reactionary line that we’ve heard from authority figures in so many different guises for so long, “OBEY! IT’S THE LAW!” when we all know that this rhetorical tactic alone should give us pause and reconsider to what extent these people are really there for the purpose of the FURTHERING of art or the REGULATION of art. The way I see it, you would have to argue that art is fundamentally subordinate to the Law to make the case that Grant is articulating. Otherwise, you have to be open to the fact that what is illegal is not necessarily in any way contrary to the promotion of art. Just think of Crass when they had the pigs harassing them for violating the profanity codes in Britain or The Dead Kennedy’s when Frankenchrist landed them in criminal charges for distribution of harmful matter to minors. These are obviously different cases, since they fall under the legal issues of censorship (and hence the relation of the law to production and not consumption), but I think they demonstrate two points. First, law and art have a history of tension (do I need to go on to cite Plato and Michaelangelo?), that is, what is in the interest of the law is sometimes (if not always) against “interests” of art. Two: censorship, though pertaining primarily to the legality of the production of art, implies the legality of the consumption of art (to put it crassly).

    With regard to music blogs and the like, the issue that is being pushed here is this: what grounds are there by which to censor aesthetic consumption without reference to the law (i.e., without becoming a cop)?

    Now, the derivative issue is the one that has been floating around already: is it the case that music blogs et al. are beginning to do more to promote bands than the traditional means of promotion? This is a question that needs time to answer itself. However, what is certain is that the pre-emptive strikes against music blogs will prevent this from being answered genuinely, which potentially signifies that this is a matter of law, control, and order–and NOT art–for labels like Eyeball. Given the perverse pleasure of the rep. from Eyeball in being able to flash their badge and whip out their linguistic beating stick, my guess is that in this case it’s not about art, but about power.

79. On April 21st, 2007 at 9:52 pm
    Jack said:

    Sorry, first sentence should say:

    “We are still discussing this because it is obvious that a set of technologies are evincing the fact that the mode of the *distribution* of music is in a period of transition.”

80. On April 21st, 2007 at 10:11 pm
    tess said:

    Has anybody actually asked the bands if they agree with this? maybe some of the bands on eyeballrecords are fine with music piracy and can see the benefits out of it

81. On April 21st, 2007 at 10:46 pm
    Jack said:

    good question, tess

82. On April 22nd, 2007 at 12:26 am
    Josh said:

    In a way the term indie record label is kinda really fucking retarded.
    If the band is so underground and independent how come they have to depend on a label to do their shit for them.

    But yeah if it werent for the internet and blogging sites and stuff.
    Indie music would still be exactly what the term indie is all about;
    indpendent artists selling cds themselves, setting up shows themselves, and being INDEPENDENT.

    So basically Eyeball what I am saying is i know that you’re losing money.
    I know you probably, to quote MC Lars “losing a flat screen TV if you drop the ball”,
    but you have to look at the other end of the spectrum as well.

    It’s like being homeless and asking a man for food and them giving you a full course meal, then 2 years later the same man being homless and asking you for a sandwhich and you kicking him in the mouth.

    Just think about it.
    I’m not saying let kids walk all over you with parading around your music.
    But just find some common ground is all.

83. On April 22nd, 2007 at 12:38 am
    Jason said:

    I hope someone steals something from you soon.

84. On April 22nd, 2007 at 2:28 am
    kera said:

    Seriously, there was no such need to be such a ass to the kid. I think at least a more polite letter would have done the trick.

85. On April 22nd, 2007 at 2:28 am
    kera said:

    As well, I mean.

86. On April 22nd, 2007 at 9:10 am
    Phantom said:

    Seeing how im a Artist myself and do my own everything (Advertising, sales, distrubution, etc.) I know the hardships and i know money comes everyonce in a while. In this case though, i will say one thing, By law eyeball only could sue google for these actions, then google could have sued kinixtion. But there are laws at hand these days like certain disclaimers that prevent anyone from bringing it down. I dont think promoting music is bad. It want make us money, but it will get our names out. I do it for the love of the music, not always the money, i have a second job that i enjoy, and all artist do, only the sell outs sit around and bitch about royalties….

87. On April 22nd, 2007 at 10:06 am
    Karl said:

    I’d like someone to explain to me how posting an entire record is somehow equated with “free advertisement” for the label. Isn’t that why labels post tracks on their websites and myspace pages and whatnot?

    People need to wake the fuck up; if a small indie label says that downloading is hurting their business, it is because that is true. They have seen declining sales. Period.

    Oh yeah, there won’t be any stores to buy at soon enough…

    Also, Marc did not know the author of the site was a 16-year old girl when he sent the letter…only after the reply.

88. On April 22nd, 2007 at 10:44 am
    Josh said:

    “Oh yeah, there won’t be any stores to buy at soon enough…”

    See there you go.
    In a couple years record labels will pretty much be gone!
    GONE!
    What are bands going to need them for?
    Oh yeah posting your songs on the internet and getting money from it is real fucking hard!
    Shows too.
    Yeah calling up a place and asking to play a show or having someone call you or even hiring a booking agency is real fucking hard!
    You’re just delaying the inevitable. By Eyeball doing this its their way of fighting out of the corner.
    Just a last ditch effort.

89. On April 22nd, 2007 at 11:01 am
    ME! said:

    To me.. the word “INDIE” means “DIY - DO IT YOURSELF”

90. On April 22nd, 2007 at 12:10 pm
    p said:

    i’ll jump the bandwagon and say fuck eyeball records, as well as anyone else who’s in on this.

    these bands aren’t mainstream, so all they’re really relying on is word of mouth and that only goes so far but sharing their music is part of that. just be glad people are listening to your shit.

    if you’re going to call yourselves indie, then be what you say you are. like the person above me said: “to me, the word ‘indie’ means ‘diy.’” they’re right. don’t rely on others for money to flow in because it won’t happen. if money really matters, worry about charging people at venues, not stores. otherwise, get a real job.

    stupid scene faggots. qq.

91. On April 22nd, 2007 at 12:14 pm
    p said:

    oh and by the way, what kinixtion and co. do (or used to do) isn’t copyright infringement. gb2 school and brush up in law class, you failures.

92. On April 22nd, 2007 at 2:08 pm
    jason said:

    how is that not copyright infringement? they are distributing something that isn’t there and is licensed to someone else

93. On April 22nd, 2007 at 2:18 pm
    ME! said:

    I thought infridgement was if u dind’t have the orignal copy of something.. but I do have all retail copies of cds I by.. so am I still breaking the law..Even though I own the orignal WORK?

94. On April 22nd, 2007 at 4:23 pm
    Marc Debiak said:

    Hello,
    My name is Marc and I wrote the letter and I’m responsible for Kinixtion going down. In the past few days, I have received emails that were really positive and understanding. Unfortunately, the negative ones I’ve gotten weren’t very intelligent. I’ve been called a “fag” a “capitalist asshole” and “blood thirsty” by a handful of people who didn’t stop to think for very long before sending their email. There is definitely an argument to be made on each side and I’m happy to hear everyone out, as long as they have something constructive to say.
    I’d like to offer the people on this site the opportunity to send me questions in email to info@eyeballrecords.com, but attacks and namecalling are not welcome. I want to discuss this with people who are rational and intelligent. I will post the questions, along with my answers, in these comments.
    Up until this point, all I’ve done was send the letters above. We’re a small company and we have the unique opportunity to dicuss issues like this directly with the people who buy our records. I look forward to talking to everyone!
    - Marc

95. On April 22nd, 2007 at 4:50 pm
    I SHOT MY WHITE CREAMY LOAD IN AN EYEBALL!!! said:

    LIKE I SAID BEFORE

    DIY = DO IT YOURSELF which translates to “INDIE”

    or

    It can be the other way around

96. On April 22nd, 2007 at 4:58 pm
    Marc Debiak said:

    Bands that wish to “Do it themselves” shouldn’t sign to a label. There’s nothing wrong with that. I think it’s awesome when a band can do it themselves.

    “Indie” is actually just short for “Independent”, meaning privately owned and operated.

    What exactly is your question?

97. On April 22nd, 2007 at 6:37 pm
    p said:

    jason: how IS it copyright infringement? are they claiming ownership? are they plagiarizing? no? alright then. no problem there!

    marc: how do you honestly think people were going to respond? of course people would lash out, kinixtion and co. were very good, resourceful music blogs. but just because they disagreed with your actions doesn’t make them dumb, and who did agree with them doesn’t make them smart[er]. that’s very unintelligent of YOU to assume. like i said, just be glad people are listening to your shit. also, thanks for reassuring us what “indie” meant but i believe we already had that established, sir.

98. On April 22nd, 2007 at 7:05 pm
    d said:

    I personally think it makes them look dumb[er] because they used the term “faggots” after being caught stealing.

    It seems to me everyone is “lashing out” because they are defensive of the fact that finally someone called them out on what they are: thieves.

99. On April 22nd, 2007 at 7:07 pm
    I SHOT MY WHITE CREAMY LOAD IN AN EYEBALL!!! said:

    http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=295513

100. On April 22nd, 2007 at 7:17 pm
     d said:

     Also, p, start your own record label and don’t pay your bands for record sales. Take in $0 and spend $0 promoting them. Make a music video for $0! Fun! Take an ad out in various publications for $0. Your label is going to be huge!

     You obviously have so many better ideas as to how to make the music industry work.. be the guy who changes it all!!!! It can be YOU! Think about it…. you can be the guy who they look back on and say “he saved music!!!!!”

101. On April 22nd, 2007 at 7:18 pm
     p said:

     I did it!

102. On April 22nd, 2007 at 7:22 pm
     Marc Debiak said:

     P, please copy and paste the part of my comment where I said someone was “dumb”.

103. On April 22nd, 2007 at 7:25 pm
     Marc Debiak said:

     Oh and P, as for this:
     “jason: how IS it copyright infringement? are they claiming ownership? are they plagiarizing? no? alright then. no problem there!”

     This is the dictionary definition of copyright:
     the exclusive legal right, given to an originator or an assignee to print, publish, perform, film, or record literary, artistic, or musical material, and to authorize others to do the same.

104. On April 22nd, 2007 at 7:29 pm
     Georgia said:

     When did music become about the money? I understand it takes money to produce, record, print, etc. the music but over the last five years the money that goes behind making the album is what has become the primary focus, and not always the music that itself. I also understand that there exists a difference between Indie and Corporate labels, in which one has more money to play around with.

     I still purchase albums, and I would say a little more than 80% of my collection has been purchased legally, and partly because I had downloaded the music illegally first as a means of seeing whether or not it was actually worth buying (i.e. worth listening to more than once). The other 20% of my collection does contain music I acquired through illegal means because 1) I could not find the album in stores or through online music sellers, or 2) because the price of an album was too extravagant (I once tried to find an out-of-print album that would have cost me nearly $70). I support the bands that I listen to when and where I can, and I am a realist and acknowledge the fact that there are several of my peers who abuse the opportunity they have, there has to be a better way for the music industry in general to work with the fans. Music labels (both corporate and independent) need a better means of communicating with each other that does not include name-calling and threatening.

     Some artists have allowed a 24 hour preview of their new albums on their website or a site affiliated with them, in which the music was streamed–something like that I believe is very effective because it is a way for the fans to completely listen to an album before purchasing. Several stores these days do not allow a consumer to return a CD if it has been open, which, in my honest opinion, has lead to an increase in pirating music.

105. On April 22nd, 2007 at 7:58 pm
     Marc Debiak said:

     Hey Georgia,
     itunes offers secure album downloads for under $10, delivered immediately. They even allow you to pay for one song at a time in case you don’t like some of the songs. Amazon, interpunk, smartpunk, etc. all offer low prices for physical product as well. The idea that you can’t find it or it’s priced too high just doesn’t sit right with me. There’s plenty of places to get the music legally and inexpensively.
     Music isn’t “about the money”, but money is required to produce and promote good albums. Food, for example, is a requirement to sustain life. Is it wrong for a restaurant to charge for it? No, because they’re providing a specialty service. The same goes for a record label. You can have music for free. Just sing or put on the radio. That’s free. But when a company and an artist spend a lot of money to produce a piece of work, it’s their right to sell it in order to get enough money to do it again. You shouldn’t be able to steal it anymore than you should be able to leave a resaurant without paying your check. Do you condemn the chef for making a living preparing food? How dare he charge for food! We need that to live. Sorry for the sarcasm… it’s just in my blood.
     We’ve made full album previews available of every one of our new releases prior to release date, and itunes and amazon provide free samples of every song. The problem is that fans rip the previews from our sites and circulate them before the albums is released. We tried to meet the fans half way, but our trust is constantly breached.
     It should be noted again that theaters don’t allow you to watch a whole movie before deciding whether to pay to see it… why should a record label allow you to take a copy of the album home before you decide to purchase it?
     The magic of buying a new record is lost on a generation of music listeners who are spread too thin. You’ll never truly know the joy of opening a new album and putting it into the CD player the first time. Listening from begining to end, taking the whole thing in as a work of art… not storing it among 25,000 others. Treating it like a piece of data that can be ripped, swapped, stolen.
     When I was a kid, discovering music for the first time, my CD’s were like my children. I knew every word that was written in the booklets. The names of every musician, the producer, the lyrics. Music listeners today don’t enjoy the same experience. Music has been reduced to a fast-food type disposable commodity. And it’s sad.

106. On April 22nd, 2007 at 8:15 pm
     Jason said:

     Well put, Marc.

     When I was a “broke student” nothing felt better than saving every penny I had and hitting up the record store once every few months and buying the CD or two that I wanted. I did my research before hand. I read reviews, checked out album streams, talked to friends and made an educated purchase. I’d get home and thumb through the booklet while listening to it on headphones and be able to really appreciate for everything that it was. Take my copy of Diary by Sunny Day Real Estate for example. My fingerprints are all over the artwork, there is a fold on the front cover, the case is slightly cracked and it sits proudly on my shelf. That copy is mine and mine alone. I’m at a place now where I can purchase albums more freely, but I still appreciate every release for the work of art that it truly is.

     Whether it be a hard copy of a CD, a download off of a DSP (itunes, amazon etc), or a new pair of jeans, there is something to be said for owning something you worked hard for. The value of today’s album has been reduced to $0 to a lot of peoples eyes and they collect albums like they collect Pokemon… or Pogs. When are the Eyeball “Slammers” coming out??

107. On April 22nd, 2007 at 8:48 pm
     Jill said:

     Okay. Here’s my philosophy (long and possibly confusing read ahead).

     Music, in itself, is not about the money. It never was. It never should be. Music should be spread throughout the world, for people to enjoy. You can not make someone’s ears pay for the music that they hear, either live or by radio or by means that they do not control. If you had to pay because you had heard something you liked, wouldn’t it be criminal?

     However. Record labels are not creating their own music. Record labels produce the music in a usable and sellable format to help distribute it. They’re providing a service for music distribution. They create a product, as known as a CD, or… “record”. This is somebody’s job, to provide a service to both the musician and the customers. If I’m not sorely mistaken, isn’t it part of the record label’s job to provide somewhere to record the music, and edit it so that it sounds the best for distribution? Or am I totally out to lunch? Record labels aren’t all about distribution, but they’re also about the quality. As with every service, people expect to get paid for it.

     Sure, you’re helping the artist by getting the artist better known - by distributing their music, but who was it that made it sound so clean? Who was it that created the physical element known as an “album”? Don’t they deserve your support, too? Maybe not, you know, fans like “OMG! I must so, leik, TOTALLY go and purchase an EYEBALL RECORDS TSHIRT OMGOMGOMGOMG”, but people who understand that today’s music industry isn’t just about the artist (although they should still be the major focus, as they are the ones creating the music). There are other people involved, now, too, and they deserve to eat just like the rest of us with a job.

     Musicians deserve to eat, too, but I think they understand that for most musicians, it is very difficult to make a living off of their music. For the most part. It would be nice, but not everyone is talented or lucky enough in that aspect. Record labels help them very much to put their music out on the market. They also make their music usable for the radio or any other streaming audio - perfect examples of decent music-sampling that is free for anyone with access to the internet. (If you’re worried about finding Indie music via radio, there are perfectly good radio stations via internet that you can listen to, lots of them are commercial-free or have possibly just the mentioning of what radio station that you’re listening to.)

     So, in essence, downloading helps promote the music, yes, but in what way? Word of mouth, I suppose, and the fact that you can preview an entire album before purchasing it.

     However, you can ALSO promote the band in a completely legal way, by spreading it through word of mouth, and linking people to a legal music streaming site. Lots of websites have entire albums you can stream, so you can, in essence, preview them before purchasing an album. What if you want just one song? iTunes store (or similar mp3-purchasing sites)!

     The one thing I don’t like about the music industry is that some record labels make it impossible to put your favourite CD onto your computer, and hence, an mp3 player, in good quality. I think the major focus should be a huge crackdown on all p2p networks (even though new ones will pop up, if we go quickly and efficiently, we can catch the majority of them and scare the rest of them off in one fell swoop - but we’d need people with money to hire lawyers for big legal lawsuits), and anyone distributing music for free on the internet. Start streaming music for free, and advertise big streaming sites. Most people these days have a good enough internet connection to support streaming music, at least, if they’re downloading music. Remove the CD ripping things. Sure, people might still copy albums and possibly email music to friends, but I don’t think that there is a full 100% way to stop the distribution of music through methods that do not equal a profit. But maybe this would help a little.

108. On April 22nd, 2007 at 9:04 pm
     Jason said:

     Well put, Jill!

109. On April 22nd, 2007 at 9:27 pm
     Georgia said:

     Hey Marc,

     Yes, iTunes does provide one with a preview and the ability to download a few songs prior to purchasing an entire album, but unfortunately those previews are only 30 seconds long, and are often awkwardly cut and/or are poorly thought out to begin with. And 30 second previews are often misguiding. Even when purchasing only a select few songs from iTunes one can be forced into a false sense of security by picking out the few gems of the album. And OOP albums are often hard to find (even online) at an online price. I don’t just check two music sellers and then decide to download illegally. I often scour local stores, several in the City, and then the ones online. If I can not find something reasonably priced I will at times justify paying the extra bucks as a means of giving back to the 20% of my collection in which I didn’t spend a dime on.

     No, it isn’t wrong for a restaurant to charge for food. Restaurants clearly state what is in a dish, and if you ask you can at times be given a free sample, or if you do not like, you can send it back. Music unfortunately isn’t done this way because 1) it is abstract, and 2) you can’t send it back.

     Also, stores like FYE provide in-store album previews by swiping the barcode into little stands. Their previews are generally anywhere from 1 to 2 minutes, and allow the consumer to purchase an album with a clearer idea of what the album is like.

     Comparing the cinema to album purchasing is a bit mystifying. When people go to the cinema they go in knowing it is a one time deal, and even though movie tickets are a little pricey these days, a ticket for one movie is still less than the price of an album. Also, movies (which at times are the same length as albums) release trailers that last anywhere from 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

     I do know the joy of purchasing albums. I have albums I have bought ten years and two weeks ago that I did not preview and relished in the beats, melodies, and lyrics that assaulted my ears for the first time. I remember looking over the album art while in awe that another human being was able to translate certain feelings into melodies and words and not lose their poignancy. There is a magic there that does not exist anywhere else, but most people these days do not care. Also, most of the people pirating music these days I have to agree do not know the real worth of an album (one that money can not touch), and see albums as Jason stated, something as trivial as pogs, to be collected but never really enjoyed.

     Certain artists I buy outright because I can trust in the quality of art they put out. I agree with you that albums are a work of art, and often need to be listened in whole in order to understand the depth and quality of it, but honestly, how many recording artists these days can really call themselves “artists?” The music that I want to preview before I actually purchase often are from newer bands (who in the long run I must acknowledge have more to lose by music pirating) whom I have never heard of before. It’s like buying a car back in the 60s and buying a car now, the quality is so vastly different that you can not help but want to test-drive it beforehand. And I must realize that that is an unfair generalization, but it exists. Since the 80s there has been a real push by the music industry to find the Next Big Thing, that the quality of music has dropped, and just as music listeners have had to suffer the industry suffered as well as new technology arose, giving power to the consumer.

     Also, addressing the fact that music pirating can be detrimental to a young band’s success, it can also make them flourish. Some bands who had poor promotion can suddenly be rediscovered online. I know that does not justify music pirating in general, but sincere fans do arise out of it and do make an honest effort to give back to the bands they have found through illegal means.

110. On April 22nd, 2007 at 9:51 pm
     Bad Barb said:

     I’ve worked at an indie label, and I play in a touring indie band. Some of you people need to read some of the posts above to really understand how the music business works, for better or worse. Indie labels do need to be able to afford lawyers, lawyers (for better or for worse) are required evils if you’re setting up a business of any kind.

     Eyeball could be any label, it doesn’t matter whether their bands suck or not. Here’s the deal. I too, make music because I love it. However, it does cost money to make a record. If you’re smart, or the right kind of band, you get a computer and some gear and you make your own studio. It took me five years and many jobs, and a lot of money. It also gave me autonomy. Don’t get me wrong, warm wishes and kudos and myspace messages of “you rock” are amazing and make me feel all warm and fuzzy and give a band strength to go on, but it doesn’t put strings on my guitar, food on my plate, or gas in my van to get me to the next city or a shite motel. You can get pret-ty far, pret-ty far on the high of an amazing show and the feeling you’ve connected with an audience, but eventually, you’re gonna have to get some pizza.

     Here’s how the system works. Indie band puts record out, usually on their own dime. Indie band does their first two or three tours for little or no money before breaking even (generally the case)…if an indie band wants to get to…lower hipster indie band status, they need
     distribution
     press/publicity (and this includes blogs and radio spins, yes, even college)
     booking agent/management
     a publishing deal
     Do you know what the first thing all these people look at before paying ANY attention to indieband? They look at scans. Record sales. It’s unfortunate, but that’s how it works. No scans, no love. An indie band that doesn’t sell a lot of records has a hard time booking gigs, and getting paid decent money for them. If they have a hard time booking gigs, they don’t make money on merch. Oh, by the way, most indie bands have to also front a couple of thousand just to make that merch. When touring, you’re looking at incurring costs for shipping gear, visas, vehicle rental, gas, lodging, repairs, etc. If you’re a mid to lower level indie band giving the kind of show people expect, you’ll also be needing to hire a road manager, your merch person, a road crew of at least two people…these things add up.

     Between freebies, youtube, myspace, mindviz and everywhere else, there are plenty of options for getting your fix, or shopping for albums. I download, and tend to buy what I really like and delete the rest to make room for the next tryouts. I agree, there is a glut of shitty albums with only a handful of worthy tracks. Personally, being able to pick whatever track I want for less than a buck at itunes has remedied that problem.

     Art and commerce are two things that should, ideally be separate, at least at the moment of inception and creation. I have no doubt that ian MacKaye’s dedication to craft and perseverance has much to do with the his comfortable lifestyle that affords him a cavalier attitude, but he was lucky enough to be productive in a time when distribution channels were not quite as…accessible.

     I too, am pissed off at “the man”. The major label system is…pathetic, the model is creaky and based on fear and nepotism and a good old boys club that goes back over half a century, never mind shady business practices. And yes, some indies belong in this club as well. All I ask is for people to pick and choose their battles wisely, and to not penalize independent artists and labels who take a lot of time and effort and put their hearts and souls into creating something that will rock your world. 99 cents can’t be too much to ask.

111. On April 22nd, 2007 at 10:22 pm
     p said:

     marc: “Unfortunately, the negative ones I’ve gotten weren’t very intelligent.”

     d: that isn’t stealing. it’s what the internet — a clusterfuck of information, whether it be visual, audible, or otherwise — is for, and you can never stop it no matter how many times you cry about it. you can’t stop anything from happening, not even murder. however, if people sharing your music via the web is really an issue because you’re not making any profits, that’s either because 1. you suck and/or no one cares enough, or 2. you just started out and need to wait a while. but once more, like i said before, if money really matters [as an indie band], worry about charging people at venues, not stores. otherwise, get a real job.

     at this point, i have no respect for eyeball records, as well as anyone else who’s in on this, and i feel only the urge to continue THIEVING and downloading more ILLEGAL music! ^__^; way to get support, douchebags. not much of a loss, though, seeing as how eyeball records is just a lame scene label.

     georgia apparently has a good handle of things from here so i’m done [for now].

112. On April 22nd, 2007 at 11:17 pm
     Jill said:

     I don’t understand how asking to be paid for a service (cleaning up and producing of music) is wrong at all, of Eyeball Records. Please explain your ideas. They prepare the music in such a way that you can access it in the first place, why can’t you pay them back for this?

     And it must be a real tough time for indie bands, as somehow they need to afford to be able to play at these venues that they charge audiences to see, because they aren’t getting any money from record sales. And yet when they go to perform, everyone seems to know every lyric of their songs… I don’t get it. Is that what “caring” is?

113. On April 23rd, 2007 at 6:29 am
     Marc Debiak said:

     I’m sorry but this:
     “at this point, i have no respect for eyeball records, as well as anyone else who’s in on this, and i feel only the urge to continue THIEVING and downloading more ILLEGAL music! ^__^; way to get support, douchebags. not much of a loss, though, seeing as how eyeball records is just a lame scene label.”
     …doesn’t deserve a response. I’m running a company and working 70 hours a week. I don’t have time for these kinds of responses.

     Everyone is saying really great stuff, otherwise.
     Georgia, thanks for taking the time out to talk about this. What do you think labels can do, other than turn a blind eye to piracy, to help fans make an educated purchase? I see what you mean, but I bought records for 20 years before the internet took over. I read press reviews, listened to samplers, saw bands live, etc. $10-$14 is the same price as a movie ticket these days. I’ve left movies and said “that sucked”. I’ve left restaurants and said “that sucked”. Is a CD really THAT significant of an investment that you need to live and breathe it for months before spending the ten bucks? My feeling here is that people shouldn’t buy a record if they’re not totally sure, but they also shouldn’t steal it.
     Short of giving the entire album away for free, if there’s a way for people to hear a satisfactory amount of music before purchasing, I’d love to hear about it and try it.

     As for the industry trying to find the “next big thing”, that applies to majors (who have done this since the 30’s) and not to indies. Indies sign bands with our ears, not our wallets.
     For every one band that flourishes due to illegal downloading, there are at least 100 that suffer from it.

114. On April 23rd, 2007 at 7:24 am
     d said:

     p: “worry about charging people at venues, not stores.”

     People pay to get into shows. Are you suggesting venues charge more for a live show? Pitch that one, see how far it gets.

115. On April 23rd, 2007 at 8:15 am
     Sean said:

     Mark, thanks for participating in this discussion. It’s obviously a very heated debate and it’s great to see some intelligent thought being put towards it all.

116. On April 23rd, 2007 at 8:21 am
     IndieHQ [Debunking the Myths of Peer to Peer in Regards to CD sales] said:

     […] It is official, the recent post I made, Eyeball Records brings down music blog/pirating site, Kinixtion, has the most comments of any post we have ever made on IndieHQ with well over 100 comments coming in over just a few short days. I have read nearly every single comment and it goes without saying that this topic polarizes our readers. Having read all of the comments, I thought I could use my experience of running a record label for nearly 12 years to share my thoughts. […]

117. On April 23rd, 2007 at 10:10 am
     Tim said:

     Let me preface this with “I love the music gods!!!”

     I don’t know about everybody else, but, I’ve never bought a RECORD (as in Vinyl) or CD based on the record label. I don’t give a rats ass who’s promoting a band or artist. It’s the musician(s) that matter. If they’re any good, they’ll make money, support their families and buy nicer equipment, to make their offerings even better. That’s just life.

     If a band breaks up because their not making any money, more than likely, it’s because they suck. They would suck because their in the “business” for the money, not because they have a passion for what their doing. I own a restaurant, if my food sucked, I wouldn’t be in business very long, now would I? You gotta’ have passion…

     I have found a number of musician/bands that I never would have heard of, if it hadn’t have been for somebody ripping their CD and making it available. And that’s how it’s been done since the beginning of time. It’s called “Word of Mouth.” I give more credence to word of mouth, than slick advertising, any day.

     Concerning the albums I’ve downloaded:

     Like I said earlier, I found stuff I never would have heard of. A band in Boston, a Vocalist in Idaho, etc. etc. If I like their stuff, I’ll certainly google them, join their fan list and buy their CD, T-Shirts or whatever they got. Thats just to show my love for what their doing.

     I spend about $600 a month on music related stuff. I love music. “All praise to the Music Gods!!” Do the “labels” really want to piss me off? How about a few thousand others like me?

     How about everybody that has downloaded an album and then bought it contact the talent that Eyeball Record represents, and tell them that “On account of their affiliation with Eyeball Records, you will not be purchasing their CD’s, or other merchandise until that affiliation has been severed.”

     As far as I’m concerned, the “labels” are nothing more than another form of the Mob, profiting off the “God Given” talents of other people. We won’t miss Eyeball Records or any of the other labels that wishes to join their war on the rest of the planet.

     Tim

118. On April 23rd, 2007 at 10:42 am
     p said:

     marc: thanks for acknowledging my silly response, hypocrite! ;) after all i don’t see this as anything to take seriously. you haven’t put a dent in anything but people’s respect. on kinixtion there must’ve been hundreds of free, ready to download albums, and not so many on your label. the smartest thing you ever could’ve done was request for all bands under YOUR label to be taken down instead of speaking for everyone — that would’ve been understood and carried out hassle-free. no one likes a dick on a soap box. sit down already, you’re boring me.

     d: i’m referring to merch too.

     ps: for anyone that has told me and anyone else to try starting a record company of their own: no. that logic doesn’t work. you don’t say to someone, “well, if you think my art sucks, then make your own!” or, “you don’t know what you’re saying, you don’t have any art of your own!” try again please.

119. On April 23rd, 2007 at 10:43 am
     p said:

     also, well said, tim.

120. On April 23rd, 2007 at 12:05 pm
     Marc Debiak said:

     “How about everybody that has downloaded an album and then bought it contact the talent that Eyeball Record represents, and tell them that “On account of their affiliation with Eyeball Records, you will not be purchasing their CD’s, or other merchandise until that affiliation has been severed.”

     The email can say:

     Hey Band,
     I downloaded your music and Eyeball Records got mad! They said they paid for it so I shouldn’t be allowed to have it for free! LOL! They said it violates copyright law! Argh! I’m listening to your music, isn’t that enough? You should work at Dunkin Donuts forever so I can listen to your music without paying for it.
     I won’t be stealing any more of your music until you stop working with those mobsters! OMG I HAVE A CRASS PATCH ON MY PUNKY BREWSTER PANTS.
     Love,
     Timmy

121. On April 23rd, 2007 at 1:02 pm
     d said:

     tim: “As far as I’m concerned, the “labels” are nothing more than another form of the Mob, profiting off the “God Given” talents of other people. We won’t miss Eyeball Records or any of the other labels that wishes to join their war on the rest of the planet.”

     Which paranoid “we” are you speaking of? Are you going to blame the Kennedy assassination on Eyeball next? Are you going to write an epic 2000 page sci-fi novel about how Eyeball has taken their evil war outside of the PLANET and into the outer realms of Sector-NorphusG7?

     p: “the smartest thing you ever could’ve done was request for all bands under YOUR label to be taken down instead of speaking for everyone”

     please re-read the original letter sent to Kinixtion.

122. On April 23rd, 2007 at 1:47 pm
     Chuck otr records said:

     This is an intersting point and im going to side with marc and eyeball on this one. I have/had a small label and I know people would steal the music. Yes, it is stealing. The industry has changed so much lately. People who “buy” music say they will download and then go to the store and buy the CD. If this was true, CD stores wouldnt be going under all the time.
     Do you people think that internet blogs, myspace and youtube are really going to pack shows for these small bands? good luck cause every band out there has a myspace page with a million “friends” and it doesnt translate into anything at all. Labels need to help with the basics. When you see an ad in a magazine that costs $3000 and you think the CD might be really good, think someone believes in that band to spend $3000. Why not spend $9.99 on the music. Trust me, I bet marc would rather take that ad cash and take his family on vacation and say fuck it, everyone is going to hear new london fire on little timmys blog and then go out and buy it.
     I could go on and on about how much a label does for a band and then in return the bands “fans” rip off the people who helped build them. Of course anyone not involved in the process is going to say free is great and the people paying for it need to make their money back. Last point is, the indie labels are normally the bands biggest fan. Think about that when you think the band is going to side with you over their indie label who has supported them in more ways then you can imagine.

123. On April 23rd, 2007 at 3:58 pm
     Dave said:

     Was @ work today… I was curious what gives radio djs the right to have advanced copies.. but regular joes… thats me… and everyone else… can’t have advanced/or promo cds? but there getting cds way before we the customer will.. so are they breaking laws by having advanced screeners/cds/ or whatever

124. On April 23rd, 2007 at 5:09 pm
     LOL said:

     The Number 12 sucks. [:

125. On April 23rd, 2007 at 5:23 pm
     Marc Debiak said:

     Dave,
     The radio DJ’s file the advance copy at the station for on-air play. If you have a radio station, I’ll be happy to send you advance copies so you can broadcast them for potential record buyers.
     Record buyers can’t take a broadcast home and listen to it over and over again.
     Radio play is one of the many ways that the record label gives potential customers the opportunity to hear something before they buy it. In addition, legitimate radio stations have to pay the artist through BMI, ASCAP, SESAC, etc. the statutory rate for public performance each time they play the album.

     - Marc

126. On April 23rd, 2007 at 5:24 pm
     Marc Debiak said:

     LOL,
     I disagree about the #12.
     - Marc

127. On April 23rd, 2007 at 5:32 pm
     Dave said:

     What, makes you think DJ’s don’t rip cds? Thats alot of trust your giving them guy!.. esp if a dj is down with the whole IRC scene groups… scene groups will never ever GO AWAY!!!!

     HACK THE PLANET
     HACK THE PLANET

128. On April 23rd, 2007 at 8:06 pm
     Jill said:

     Dave:

     I’m not sure if it is legal to DJ with ripped CDs. They’d probably be booted out of the radio station. (Although I’m rather unfamiliar with the laws regarding DJ-ing)

     And Tim:

     “I have found a number of musician/bands that I never would have heard of, if it hadn’t have been for somebody ripping their CD and making it available. And that’s how it’s been done since the beginning of time. It’s called “Word of Mouth.” I give more credence to word of mouth, than slick advertising, any day.”

     You know what’s also called “Word of Mouth”? Linking to a legal online streaming site. You don’t necessarily have to illegally download music in order to listen it and make a decision upon whether to get the album. What the problem is is that people will just download the music, and never end up purchasing the album. You’re speaking for a small minority, if, in fact, you have purchased an album for every single one you downloaded and liked. Why not just go to the streaming sites and listen and make your decision there? Is it that difficult?

129. On April 23rd, 2007 at 8:16 pm
     Dave said:

     Jill, are you an attorney @ law or a lawer or something… I mean.. all you really need to do is to .. rip the cd @ the radio station.. and since its on the comp.. upload it to a server.. and email yourself the link!
     I’m sure djs rip cds… anyways.. its easy to do. doesn’t take to long.. and plus.. im sure there’s cd burners on the computers @ the stations that they use anyways.. so its mad easy to rip/burn/upload! esp with a fast internet connection!

130. On April 23rd, 2007 at 9:51 pm
     Jill said:

     Possibly, but the ISP (internet service provider) could notice something like that… and the company owning the radio station would probably be tracking computer use for professionalism and maintaining a legal business.

131. On April 23rd, 2007 at 11:11 pm
     Jason said:

     Its great if you think that many of you think music shouldn’t be about the money. There are plenty of bands that have spoken up and said they don’t care about downloading. These bands agree with you, so keep up the good work and spread the word, maybe someday the band will be big enough to… keep working at whatever their day job is.

     But if a band signs to a record label, puts in the money and effort to record a decent (quality, not necessarily musicianship) record, and honestly wants to make enough to live off of by selling a few hundred or thousand cds, merch, and touring, you have to respect their decision. You can do this in one of two ways:

     1) Tell the band to go screw themselves, they suck, they don’t care about the music, etc. Do this by not buying the CD, don’t go to their concert, don’t buy a t-shirt. Go to all your friends who play ‘for the music’ and tell them to boycott said band. Forget the band ever existed. Don’t give the band the time of day.

     or

     2) Take a listen at Purevolume, Myspace, or find somewhere to hear it (and don’t give me any bull about not being able to find legit samples online). If you like it, get the CD. Best Buy doesn’t sell it? Stop bitching, almost every band sells merch through numerous online stores.

     My point is the artist has obviously decided that they want to make money (which normally means barely break even) by putting a price on their CD. You have no right to say ’screw that, I want it for free’. If you don’t like it, then see 1 above. Feel free to download all those bands that you all seem to be friends with that don’t care about the money, but don’t dictate to the rest of the bands how much their art is worth, and if you don’t like it, then don’t like it (i.e. don’t support them by ’spreading the word’ as you call it)

     And who cares about this DJ argument? Thats one of the worst red-herring arguments I’ve heard.

132. On April 23rd, 2007 at 11:29 pm
     Python08 said:

     I hope you guys understand that these types of blogs are one of the major ways that unsigned artists get heard.

133. On April 24th, 2007 at 4:03 am
     marcus said:

     This is fucking stupid, you know why people download albums from that blog from underground labels? cos they’re not sold in our country. She’s helping to promote you labels indirectly, Don’t you guys see? She’s only 16.

134. On April 24th, 2007 at 7:40 am
     Haywood Jablomy said:

     You idiots actually think that by bullying a 16 year old to drop your crappy music from her site that you’ve somehow put a little more $ in your pockets? C’mon guys/gals…you’re on an indy label…nobody hears your music in the 1st place! The only way you’re gonna get your name out there is to A: stand on a street corner giving CD’s away B: Tour till you fall down or C: let the kids put up your tunes on their blogs so you’ll develop a fan base who will actually want to buy your music and come to your concerts!

     You outta be thanking them!!!

135. On April 24th, 2007 at 11:22 am
     Tim said:

     I wrote and posted this reply at about 1:00 AM today. I and a couple friends saw it go live online. When I came to check if there were more comment, this post was no longer there. Obviously, somebody came to realize that I’m not some 16 year old little girl that you can bully into submission. It ain’t going to happen…

     So here’s my 2nd post again, with this addendum and one more at the bottom

     ## QUOTE: ##

     # Marc Debiak Says:
     April 23rd, 2007 at 12:05 pm

     “How about everybody that has downloaded an album and then bought it contact the talent that Eyeball Record represents, and tell them that “On account of their affiliation with Eyeball Records, you will not be purchasing their CD’s, or other merchandise until that affiliation has been severed.”

     The email can say:

     Hey Band,
     I downloaded your music and Eyeball Records got mad! They said they paid for it so I shouldn’t be allowed to have it for free! LOL! They said it violates copyright law! Argh! I’m listening to your music, isn’t that enough? You should work at Dunkin Donuts forever so I can listen to your music without paying for it.
     I won’t be stealing any more of your music until you stop working with those mobsters! OMG I HAVE A CRASS PATCH ON MY PUNKY BREWSTER PANTS.
     Love,
     Timmy

     ## END QUOTE: ##

     So, of that entire post, this was the only thing that got your goat?? What an asshole!! It just proves my point that you and other people like you are nothing more that talent leeches. I’d be willing to bet that if every one of you “label(s)” and talent leeches were to vanish off the face of the earth, art would continue just fine. Painters would continue to paint, glass blowers would blow and musician would continue to make music. The only difference would be they would no longer have to support your family as well as their own. You deserve to be put out of business.

     Tim

     d - When you get a name, then participate in the discussion. And next time, try to make some sense. This ain’t “English Lit.” class, quit trying to read something into a statement that isn’t there…

     T

     Addendum 2:

     Jill,

     I believe you read my post and you do bring up a couple valid points. There’s nothing I can do about the downloaders that download just because they can. They are the ones, I believe, that are in the minority. As for streaming, Yes, it is a perfectly good method of finding new talent, and I have accounts at purevolume.com and music.download.com. Unfortunately, I just don’t have the time, I did mention that I own a restaurant right? I’m working 70+ hours a week, so streaming audio is just not an option. It’s so much easier to RSS a few music blogs, look for something new, set the download, and then go to bed.

     I don’t know about most people, but, my life has been filled with many hours of auditory enjoyment. I never would never have heard of Beautiful Engines out of California, [http://www.beautifulengines.com/] or Bedroom Eyes from Switzerland, [http://www.bedroomeyes.se/] if a blog hadn’t made their music available to me. Yet, scum like Marc Debiak of Eyeball Records would rather deny me the pleasure of discovering new talent and force me to continue listening to automated radio stations, with the same playlists over and over again.

     I thank the Music Gods for putting people on this planet that can make music, because I can’t. My talents are elsewhere, if you want a killer BBQ sauce, i got you covered, and my Baby Back Ribs, they just fall apart in your mouth.

     Tim

136. On April 24th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
     tony said:

     “How about everybody that has downloaded an album and then bought it contact the talent that Eyeball Record represents, and tell them that “On account of their affiliation with Eyeball Records, you will not be purchasing their CD’s, or other merchandise until that affiliation has been severed.”

     The problem there is that most people who would actually really care about this are people who are probably downloading and not buying the albums to begin with. So how much would that even affect them?

137. On April 24th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
     Agustin said:

     Nice, I live in Mexico, and having a non mainstream taste I have a hard time finding the music I like on stores(if I find it, its regularly at about 20$ or more), so I rely heavily on the internet to get my music, on the other hand, I also try to support the bands, either by buying merch or going to their shows(which rarely happens).
     So bottom line, downloading for me is almost the only way I can get to know a band

138. On April 24th, 2007 at 7:29 pm
     Marc Debiak said:

     Tim,
     I don’t know how the restaurant business works. All I know is that I love food.
     Dude… I work 70 hours a week. When the fuck do I have time to cook?
     How DARE you charge me to cook food. I need that to live.
     Seriously… call me “scum” all you want. But you’re just as bad… charging people for food? The nourishment that they need to live? You’ve got some nerve!
     You’re a leech!
     - Marc

139. On April 24th, 2007 at 7:31 pm
     Marc Debiak said:

     Agustin,
     Have you tried emailing the labels for information on how someone in your country can obtain a copy of the album at a reasonable price?
     - Marc

140. On April 24th, 2007 at 10:02 pm
     Jill said:

     Tim - Don’t people pay you, every time they eat your baby-back ribs, or taste your killer barbecue sauce? Do you let people take home your food, eat some every now and then, and, a few days later, decide whether or not they want to purchase it? And some people take your food, eat it, take more, eat it, and never pay you or it? And then, somehow, you’re not pulling in any capital but you see so many people, every day, and they all say how you’re such an amazing restaurant owner. Can you imagine the resources lost?

     I’m sure this is what most Record Labels and Artists feel like whenever their music gets downloaded. Streaming is their way of offering taste samples for people who know how to look for them. And wouldn’t streaming take as much time as listening to it, anyways? (It doesn’t just download and then just sit there, does it?) A decent computer will let you stream or play anything in the background while you attend to other tasks, I’m sure. In fact, it’ll save so much computer space, too.

     Jill

141. On April 25th, 2007 at 7:57 am
     p said:

     d: yes, yes, that’s why the WHOLE site is down, not just eyeball’s bands. reread it yourself.

     chuck: “Do you people think that internet blogs, myspace and youtube are really going to pack shows for these small bands?” — if a small town, local group with just word of mouth and a myspace can pack in about 100+ people per show at a fucking beach pavillion, why can’t these bands?

     marc: “Have you tried emailing the labels for information on how someone in your country can obtain a copy of the album at a reasonable price?” — who the hell is going to go out of their way? besides, after looking a little further into eyeball records’ background, it seems like you’re doing just fine money-wise. so what’s a handful of kids downloading random albums going to do? cut into the money you’ve put aside for a starbucks mocha?

142. On April 25th, 2007 at 9:11 am
     Tim said:

     Marc,

     There are a couple major differences between the two of us:

     1. People require food, People do not require music, although it would be a rather boring world.

     2. I do give away my product. Every week I have 50 to 60 homeless people in my resturant, and they are feed extremely well. Food thats left over from our catered events is given to the rescue mission a few block away. Again, top quality stuff. And the kicker is, after 25 years of doing this, I have never once, taken a tax credit.

     3. I also have to deal with the “dine and dashers”. But, my staff has instructions to not try to apprehend them, chasing ‘em down the block is OK, makes ‘em work for the meal.

     Two of my cooks are in a local band, Ian is lead singer/guitar, Jason does drums. I’ve had them play a couple Bar Mitzvah’s. Their fairly good. Just last month I loaned Jason 2 grand for a new custom drum set.

     So, Marc, tell me again how some teeny booper in Bumfuck, Idaho, harms your business by downloading an MP3. An MP3’s that quite franklys cost you nothing to produce.

     Tim

143. On April 25th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
     A singer/songwriter said:

     What a depressing and enlightening conversation this has been.

     It’s absolutely baffling to me that anyone would think that it is perfectly acceptable to download a complete, non-excerpted free mp3 of an artist if the artist or a representative of the artist didn’t give explicit permission to do so. If an artist wants to give away free music, that’s fine. However, the artist should have the right to charge for it and that right should be respected by others who may be interested in his or her art.

     The willful ignorance that is evident here among some of you is appalling. It would be much more honest to say, “Yes, it’s illegal and it’s wrong, but I’m not going to stop downloading.” I could at least respect the honesty. But to argue that it’s not wrong, that it’s not stealing, or that it doesn’t hurt the artist is not accurate.

     It’s not really that hard to understand. If it’s not yours and you didn’t pay for it, then it’s stolen. As many have mentioned, it’s very easy to preview artists. Many have entire albums online available for streaming. What this does is ensures that people can check them out when their at their computer or other device, but that if they want the freedom to do what they want with it (such as put it in a portable mp3 player so they don’t have to be at the computer to enjoy it), that they must pay for that privilege.

     The equivalencies that some are trying to make don’t hold water. The “I give my food/videos/spare electronics away for free, or the so-and-so from famous band gives their music away for free so X band/label should too” arguments are ridiculous. Same for the “Band/Label X are doing fine money-wise” argument. It’s not your decision to make as to how fine someone else’s business is doing money-wise. If some business is making $100,000 in revenues, I could say, “Well, that’s a lot of money, they’ve already got all they need, so what harm is there if I don’t give them another 99 cents?” Well, the harm is that, those things add up. If 10,000 people decide not to buy an mp3, that’s almost $100,000 that the company loses. And for those that rail against all the “evil” indie labels and how they’re becoming as money hungry as the majors, let’s not forget that labels are still businesses with bills to pay. That $100,000 likely isn’t all going into one person’s pocket. There are so many day-to-day expenses to cover, aside from anyone’s salary. If labels can’t survive, there are many bands who should get heard that probably won’t, because like it or not, labels still are useful entities with regard to marketing, publicity, distribution and just status in general. Yes, it’s great to be truly independent and DIY and there are some bands that are successful going that route, but don’t forget that 1) there are some bands that are terrible at business and 2) some bands that don’t want to be bothered with some aspects of the business side (they’ll still have to be good at some of it, and should aspire to learn as much about the music business as they can).

     As far as people who truly want to help support the band by blogging about them, they would help more by posting links to places where the songs can be streamed–if you’re online anyway, what difference does it make if you stream it or if you download it? Besides just like on Myspace, you can add flash players to your websites that allow people to listen to songs while online from your page. I’m not sure the legality of that, but it’s better than putting up the file as a free-for-all.

     How does it hurt a label or an artist if one kid from East Bumble, Idaho downloads an mp3? Because we all know that it’s not just one kid.

     And then there’s the argument that “I can’t find X artist in this city/country/dimension.” There’s this thing called the “Internet” with “search engines” that are really easy to use. Chances are you’ll be able to find contact information for an artist or a label by typing them into a particular “search engine” called “Google.”

     I apologize in advance for the sarcasm, but it’s just ridiculous and disheartening to see so many people–people who have businesses, young people, older people–trying to justify downloading mp3s. The idea that it’s so difficult to “go out of one’s way” to go through the proper channels. How much easier does it have to be made for you? You used to have to go to the record store, search through piles of records, tapes or CDs, make a bunch of phone calls, so on and so forth. Now you have Google and other internet resources so you’ve got no excuse. Contact the artist! Contact the label! It’s not hard. This could also be helpful for them because then they realize there’s a demand, no matter how small, in city or country X. They might also appreciate the honesty and do something nice like you send you the CD or the mp3s for free. Who knows?

     We’re approaching the point where higher bitrate mp3s are going to be more readily available–yes, I know they’re already out, all you have to do is rip it at the high rate and put it out on the Net. And what about when we reach the point where most of us can print the CD art and liner notes at home, at a quality where it’s nearly identical to a purchased CD? Is that where it becomes Wrong? Or is this still just for “promotional use” and to help get that band’s music out there and “gain exposure”? Are you really going to buy it now? And are you really going to support them in some other way? Sure, you might have the intention of going to see them live, but since everyone is stealing their music, they might not have enough money to make it to your town.

     Why do people continue making the argument that mp3s cost nothing to produce? Sure, it’s true that mp3s cost nothing to produce other than the time to copy the file. But it’s what went into making the music that costs money! If mp3s are really worth zero, then why do some people go to iTunes and buy them for 99 cents? Are they stupid? Or are they saying that they respect the work enough to pay for it?

     And just so you know, I’m a singer/songwriter myself. I’m proud of the work that I do and I put a lot of time into it. I’ve done a decent bit of session work as well. I’ve made two songs of mine available for podcast use and that’s helped me gain some exposure. And if bloggers subscribe and post podcasts instead of individual mp3s, they could do so knowing that they were truly supporting the artists by only posting tracks in a format that the artists wished to be made available for free. I do think more artists should look into making some of their songs available for podcast. But I made that choice and I decided which ones I wanted to be available.

     As a side note, one of the things that I’m tired of is the notion that since this is about “art” that we’re not supposed to make money at it, or that if we do, we’ve somehow “sold out” or should feel guilty about it. And although music is an art, the whole idea that music used to be free is bogus. Much of what is considered great classical music was either supported by a patron or otherwise commissioned by someone. Even traveling minstrels and troubadours played for something, whether it was for money outright, or shelter and a meal for the night.

     Let’s get one thing straight. The vast majority of musicians I know, including myself, are not in it for the money. Most of us are never going to make more at music than we would at some 9 to 5 job. I love music–I love to listen to it, I love to write it, I love to perform it. I’ll be writing music to the day I die–I know that for certain, even if I’m the only person who is enjoying it. But if there’s one thing that I hate (and some of my fellow musicians buy into this, too) is the notion of the “starving artist” or the “starving musician.” It can be really expensive to be a musician, especially if we don’t have the support of any kind of label. There’s this romanticized idea that we have to struggle and scrape and barely get to the next town with enough gas money. Sure, this happens, but it shouldn’t have to, us musicians shouldn’t buy into it, and the rest of the world shouldn’t buy into it either. Musicians seem to get this reputation that it’s all right to lowball and undervalue us. Play this free gig for “exposure,” some club owner might say. Why is it reasonable to deny us compensation? If it’s bad form not to tip a server, a bartender, or a delivery guy, why do some consider it reasonable to pay us peanuts? Considering what musicians have to deal with as it is, now people want to deny us what might be a reasonable stream of revenue in download sales? And then argue that downloading a song doesn’t hurt us? This is money that we can use to reinvest into our music, whether it be gas money, gear money or money to go towards recording and manufacturing a new album. Sure, one download might not hurt but the potential is there for it to add up.

     This is the heart of the whole restaurant analogy. The more meals that people don’t pay for, the less money you have to reinvest into the restaurant (buying fresh ingredients, paying staff, electric, gas, and other bills, the proper licenses, et cetera) and eventually you get to a point where it is no longer feasible to have a restaurant. Sure, you’ll always cook for yourself, but it won’t be financially feasible to cook for anyone else.

     Sorry this is so long, but then again, I’m not that sorry. I hope this helps change some minds, and if it doesn’t change yours, you were probably a lost cause anyway.

     Cheers,
     A singer/songwriter

144. On April 25th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
     Jill said:

     Sadly, no matter how good arguments are (and I am in huge favor of yours, Singer/Songwriter), people are generally stubborn enough to turn a blind eye/ear to anything that opposes what they believe (You see so much of this everywhere, it’s sickening). And that’s why the law needs to be laid down, and there needs to be a major crackdown on music downloading. I don’t think ethics alone, or ethical discussion, will change anything. We need action.

     And I’m very glad that Eyeball Records decided on a course of action, whether or not the letter was the best (if the person wasn’t a 16-year-old, they might’ve just thought of you as a scammer, or a prankster or something. Either way, not the real deal). The world needs to come to reason, whether by will or by force (and by force, I do mean law. War sucks.).

145. On April 25th, 2007 at 6:36 pm
     YO! said:

     “It’s not really that hard to understand. If it’s not yours and you didn’t pay for it, then it’s stolen.”

     So, if its yours and you bought it its not stealing.. so upping cds. to a site, or IRC… or anything else.. if you have the actual cds its not stealing right? cause You did buy it, and you did mention if you didn’t get it its stealing… So its rad if someone puts it up on a site.. since they own the actual copy?

146. On April 25th, 2007 at 7:21 pm
     Marc Debiak said:

     “who the hell is going to go out of their way? besides, after looking a little further into eyeball records’ background, it seems like you’re doing just fine money-wise. so what’s a handful of kids downloading random albums going to do? cut into the money you’ve put aside for a starbucks mocha?”

     Are Starbucks Mocha’s REALLY expensive? Like… so expensive only a “fat cat” like me can afford one?
     Thanks for the compliment on our success though. The label was started on $500.

147. On April 25th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
     Marc Debiak said:

     “So, if its yours and you bought it its not stealing.. so upping cds. to a site, or IRC… or anything else.. if you have the actual cds its not stealing right? cause You did buy it, and you did mention if you didn’t get it its stealing… So its rad if someone puts it up on a site.. since they own the actual copy? ”

     Sorry dude… dictionary definition of copyright:

     the exclusive legal right, given to an originator or an assignee to print, publish, perform, film, or record literary, artistic, or musical material, and to authorize others to do the same.

     So, publishing the work is a violation of the copyright owned by the label.

148. On April 25th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
     Marc Debiak said:

     “2. I do give away my product. Every week I have 50 to 60 homeless people in my resturant, and they are feed extremely well. Food thats left over from our catered events is given to the rescue mission a few block away. Again, top quality stuff. And the kicker is, after 25 years of doing this, I have never once, taken a tax credit.”

     Get a new accountant dude. The tax credit puts more money in your pocket for charity.

149. On April 25th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
     Marc Debiak said:

     Singer/Songwriter,
     It’s nice to hear an artists opinion! Thank you.

150. On April 25th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
     Tim said:

     OK, here it is in a nutshell. The music industry is changing. I know the labels don’t want to admit it, but they no longer have control over what or how people listen to music. It’s a fact, get over it. Why are record stores closing up at an astonishing rate? Because the people that are used to buying our music, like myself, are dying off. The labels are no longer producing a product that their target audience wants.

     Cassettes killed off LP’s, CD’s killed off cassetts, and now MP3’s are going to kill off CDs. Now if the labels want to stay in business, they are just going to have to figure out how to deliver want their customers want, and keep the control they so desperately desire.

     I, however don’t see that happening anytime soon. The genie has already been let out of the bottle, and she ain’t going back in. The RIAA and every other little conglomerate can sue everybody they can get their hands on, but, it’s just not going to make any difference. I’d lay odds that whoever this 16 year old teeny booper is, she’s already started another blog elsewhere. Or, if she didn’t 2 more popped up to take her place.

     Tim

151. On April 28th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
     Relics said:

     Thanks for posting so many links to great websites in which I can download the band’s content for free. Maybe now people will realize the redundancy and greed involved in signing onto a record label. Don’t kid yourselves you sheep, modern record labels should have no place in society, it bankrupts music into becoming a financial endeavor when it should be a lifestyle, ascetic if need be. Then perhaps we’ll finally find some musicians actually dedicated to their fans.

152. On April 28th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
     Rob said:

     I for one wouldn’t go to half the shows I do if I hadn’t heard a lot of the music by the band beforehand. This is because when I go to a show I want to already feel linked to the band that’s playing, I want to know what tracks they’ll be playing, I want to be able to have a feel for the songs, not experience them for the first time when the band is playing live. Firstly, I do buy CDs but only for bands I really like, and I feel I’d get the value for money out of the CD if I bought it. If I was FORCED to buy CDs to hear the music, this wouldn’t change - I’d continue to only by the CDs by bands I really like. As such, I wouldn’t go to so many shows by bands I only like to an extent, since I wouldn’t have heard their music, so these bands would make no money off me at all as opposed to the £7 or more I usually pay to see them play live. Now a lot of labels are up for promoting bands via downloads of the odd song or two. I don’t want to listen to one fucking song by a band on my fucking computer, I want to stick their album on my MP3 player and really sit down and listen to it. I want to get into and like the music, all of it, not one song. I don’t want to go out and buy an extortionately priced CD praying the rest of the music will sound like the one song I heard. I want to hear the music, and if I like it I will benefit the band in some way, whether it’s buying merch, going to one of their shows, or just telling my mates about them, getting their (often unknown) name heard. Record labels aren’t saving the industry with all this fuss, they’re taking music from a point where everyone these days can listen to a wide range of different types of music at no cost to themselves and truly get into music to a stage where it would only be those with the time and the money who can really appreciate bands. It goes without saying that labels would also effectively be killing 90% of homegrown bands out there today as well.

153. On April 30th, 2007 at 2:20 am
     [iskra] said:

     @jason: if someone steals something from me, ok…thats bad! but if somebody copies my pictures, my photos, my artwork, maybe a track ive composed, or copies my designs without saying its his design…im fine with that!! its not stolen, its just duplicated and another one can enjoy something ive done! when somebody wants to own an original, ok, then pay for it! but i would never ever force somebody to buy that just because he wants to enjoy my art!
     jason the times are changing and maybe culture is on its way to be part of the lives again, not just another cheap joke you can buy in a shop! by the way, the first music i owned was on copied tapes…years later i bought them all, because i wanted to have the originals, ive done it without being forced and thats the difference!

154. On April 30th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
     riseabove24 said:

     just a prime example of why eyeball is gay as fuck

155. On April 30th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
     Jeff said:

     fuck eyeball, fuck the RIAA, and fuck “illegal”. i think i’ll listen to all the free shit i downloaded and watch some movies that aren’t out yet. then i’ll support everything i actually enjoy and not waste my money on stuff that blows. i.e. eyeball records. fuck you.

156. On May 2nd, 2007 at 7:49 pm
     Bill fontaine dela tour Dotrieve said:

     Don’t you people get it. The RIAA, Eyeball, the industry see file sharing as a threat. Bands can get all the publicity, promotions, whatever if people spread the word/music. That’s what they (industry & major labels) get paid for! They see that the Bands can get the word out and not have to pay them jack sh*t.

     Eventually they see themselves getting extinct, that’s why they are being so threatened and are trying to outlaw p2p/torrent/blogs. The Bands would get all of the profits and leave the RIAA/industry with (that’s right) $0 dollars putting them out of business.

     People forget that music was being shared via cassettes & or copies of Cd’s long before it was done through the internet. I like that there are many bands who offer their music/full albums for *FREE* for download and if you like it buy the cd if not don’t, they want to get the music out. That’s what it should be about the music, it’s all about the almighty dollar nowadays, many bands don’t care about the music. Many just want that big payment and buy their million dollar homes, cars, jewelry and show off.

     It’s unfortunate that it’s that way but it is.

157. On May 3rd, 2007 at 8:36 pm
     abbie said:

     i love reading ignorant responses people leave about how they are only going to support and buy the things they like.

     as if them getting something they don’t like for free makes the whole illegal downloading part ethical.

158. On May 4th, 2007 at 1:32 am
     keir said:

     I live in a third-world country.
     Yes. How sad, huh?
     But the thing is, once a band releases an album its either:
     a) It arrives after 4734823984 years.
     b) It doesnt get here at all.
     & you do know how much that sucks now, right?
     We don’t get iTunes cards or whatever those things are.
     You must WANT a certain thing HEAPS to order it online. Its either that or you cant order anything at all since some sites seem to think that the US is the only place in the world.
     We never get concerts from those bands.
     We never get merch.
     Nothing.
     People here are being fucking close-minded jerks because they never get to hear all those amazing bands out there.
     Tbh, blogs like Kinixtion help all those bands massively.

     YOU LOSE.
     … assholes.

159. On May 5th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
     p said:

     …needless to say eyeball records just has shitty scene kid music. not much of a loss there.

160. On May 11th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
     your face said:

     this whole thing is redicuolous. lets take a look at people who mainly used these sites.
     1) kids who have no money who want to check out bands, because their mom won’t give them money to buy a cd, but will let them go to the bands shows
     2) music promoters who want to check out bands, see if they are worthy or not to put in a show
     3) kids who don’t necesarily have music stores around them, and dont want to spend the money having to buy cds online or over itunes or what have you, if its going to be a waste.

     think of it this way.
     you check out a band’s myspace or purevolume or lastfm
     they have what, an album sampler or maybe 4 or 5 songs max
     how does the consumer know that the rest of the songs aren’t complete trash.

     or sure, FYE and Wherehouse music stores have preview features where you scan and preview
     but even I myself have been fooled by these previews, only to buy the album, and hear the rest of the song is shit, and they preview the best part of the song.

     and i agree with a lot of these posters, and the claim that you just estimate the amount of hits or downloads an album or band had. just by watching courtTV you would know that it would not be admissible in court, however the proof of the number of hits/downloads you DO have proof for WOULD work.

     hence why limewire could never be sued for an exact amount of money
     how could one band or one label say “this is how much damage they have cost us”
     there is no proof of how much it would have really cost you in revenue

     and 9.16 is wholesale? if this is true, its bullshit, or its a lie. 9.16 for a piece of plastic and some tracks, created by a lazer, mixed digitally, recorded by bands in many sessions. for 9.16 at wholesale i should be getting a fuck of a lot more packaged in there.

     oh, not to mention, i have seen number 12 cds, as well as other eyeball record artist cds, for less than 9.16, i guess those record stores really want to lose out on money to.

     either the person writing this letter to the bloggers has no legal mind at all, has never watched courttv for more that 2 seconds, or is just a complete and total idiot.

161. On May 29th, 2007 at 6:41 am
     Jenkins said:

     good luck on bringing down and bullying 12 year olds… how many labels have signed up to this idea and how many websites have you got shut down????

     indie bands are in it for the money and fame anyway

162. On June 22nd, 2007 at 9:26 pm
     garrett said:

     Most of you kids don’t seem to get this concept. Labels have alot of costs that goes into each record from paying for recording to printing and pressing to advertising to PR. Most of those records on Indie labels at best will break even. While the internet can be great as a form of free advertising, when your sales are affected that causes problems. While I agree with most of you that Marc could have phrased his initial emal a little nicer, threatening litigation is what really catches the eye of people. Name calling and insults will get you no where.

163. On June 23rd, 2007 at 2:29 pm
     Ross said:

     bands make most of their money through touring. most bands make about 50 cents to a dollar off of every fifteen dollar cd or record sold, and usually they don’t make anything until they have sold about ten or twenty thousand records(the record label has to be “paid back” for the money they invested in the recording). recording music is so cheap these days that anyone with a few thousand dollars can have a pretty good quality recording studio. if they record the music themselves and release it for free, then people can download it and enjoy it, allowing the group to tour because of the name they have made for themselves through the free distribution.

     tell me, am i supporting a band more by buying one of their cds at best buy or by seeing them live and buying a t-shirt of theirs?

164. On June 27th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
     Darren said:

     You guys are fucking idiots who say DLing music is bad. I’ve downloaded many artists and I’ve fell in love with them such as O.C., Little Brother, J Dilla, AZ, Jean Grae, and MF DOOM. After I discovered these artists, I went to their concerts, purchased their CDs and hype my friends about them. Without music DLs the artists will not get exposure. Almost all of the artists I named do not sell well, but they have been putting out music for years. For example, O.C. He has been rapping for about 15 years, and he has had no mainstream exposure. But how many countless classics does he put out?? He raps for the joy and trill of it, not to make money. That is what real music artist should aim for. If not, they have no resaon to be in the industry. Personally, as long as fans appreciate the music that I’m putting out, I’ll be happy.

165. On June 30th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
     Any said:

     I’ve met marc, none of you probably have. Marc and everyone else at Eyeball are really funny nice guys who love music and are doing you ALL a service by finding you good bands through all the bullshit and letting you listen to them.. Marc single handedly discovered My Chemical Romance and is the reason they got signed in the first place, not only that, but he pushed Warner to sign them because they have the same distribution company. It is because marc that all you cry baby emos have the band biggest band of your generation.

     If you ever met the dudes at Eyeball you would realize they are a label because they want to help the bands’ they love grow by making albums and exposing those albums. The letter was sarcastic, as is the attitude of everyone in the office.

     If Any of you high school pussies make it to college, try using Ruckus.com it’s free and it’s legal, support bands without breaking open your wallet.

166. On July 11th, 2007 at 6:57 am
     jenkins said:

     garrett… if people are going to threaten legal action there is no other reply then “your a wak toy mate” indie bands are in it for the money, you have to be good to make a career out of music and most of the bands iv heard on eyeball records sound like trash bin job crap

167. On August 11th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
     Ben said:

     eyeball records have shit bands anyway, i wouldn’t pay a penny for that crap. the wanker that sent out that letter ought to get a real job, in a real label.

168. On November 24th, 2007 at 10:52 am
     Zak said:

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169. On December 15th, 2007 at 9:04 am
     dancaravan said:

     Hey Ben great comment man! You really summed up the entire conversation with your well thought out reply. I’ll make sure to look for your comments in the future so I can be taken to task…you’re brilliant! You’re mom must be proud, let me ask her…wait all I hear is garblebarllgaeble because she’s sucking my cock.

170. On February 7th, 2008 at 3:46 am
     daniscrap said:

     Hey dancaravan graeat comment man! You really summed up the entire conversation with your well thought out reply. Still threatening 12 year olds????

     there needs to be a part 2 about this post… like an update what has been shutdown???? whats that no sites?? if not more have popped up

171. On February 27th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
     fuck you said:

     an MP3 file is not equal to handing out a pressed cd eyeball records can fuck off.

172. On February 29th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
     brandon said:

     of all the labels to complain, some meaningless corperation decides to stick up for itself and hassle a sixteen year old girl because they’re pissed off about a couple thousand that THEY are missing out on. If these bands are any good, which Eyeball lacks in anyway, they would certainly still make good money . Most people will buy the cd if they especially enjoy it, even after downloading it over the internet. Then they are the millions who are unaware of these sites existence, they will also buy the cd’s that they enjoy. Surely enough money is made to cover the poor poor labels expenses, plus some. And thats without mention of merchandising and live shows, which makes more if the band is worth going to see. Now, without sample sites such as these, i would miss out on many concerts because the lack of exposure. these sites do more good for the bands by spreading their sound, but not as good for the label. the middleman. the ones who are complaining because they are not getting as fat a check as they think they deserve. who is really looking out for who here?

173. On May 3rd, 2008 at 9:56 pm
     Ashley said:

     I’ve download hundreds of albums from rapidshare, p2p, torrents, etc. I’ve ripped, uploaded, hosted and posted links to nearly a hundred of my own CDs.

     However…

     I go to shows all the time, I buy merch from online or the merch table, and I purchase CDs from Amazon or vinyl from distros like levelplane, etc. I have spent thousands of dollars on music. If I download an mp3 album and fall in love with it, I scrounge enough money together to purchase the real thing, not some crappy virtual copy, and I read the lyrics and gaze upon the artwork until I know it front to back.

     It’s stupid to imply that people who download “pirated” music are “bad for the industry” and not true music lovers and supporters.

     Times change. Stop holding on, and get creative. Stop bitching about how poor these bands are. They chose to be musicians, and these bands wouldn’t be half as popular as they are without the exposure they get from social networking sites, torrents, p2p programs, warez forums, etc.

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175. On June 23rd, 2008 at 1:41 am
     Sean S. said:

     There are two very presumptuous ideas being waved around by the original letter writer (1) that his failing business is because of downloading, as opposed to terrible bands or records and (2) that the raw revenue from selling records goes to the band.

     Anyone whose actually heard horror stories from bands on record deals, be they from smaller or corporate owned labels, is that you get hardly anything at all for individual record sales. Certainly Eyeball would be willing to tell us how much he pays out to his artists for all the work he’s doing. I doubt it approaches say, the compensation level of Bomp! or Arts&Crafts (both of which are/were well known for doing straight 50/50 deals on profits).

     This is so true in fact, that Pearl Jam once pointed out that they made more from nightly t-shirt sales than they did off of their records, that I pretty much stopped buying most major label albums, and only buying independent records if I believed they compensated their bands well (some, like Look Out! or Vagrant, don’t).

     Another flaw in his argument is that a band that plays a set of small venues and considers themselves on “tour” should all of a sudden be making enough money to quit their day jobs. This is ridiculous, and is the same kind of nonsense labels sell to unsigned bands to agree to restrictive contract terms, that you’ll make “big money” with them. Of course he’s pist that his bands aren’t getting paid; cause they’ll eventually come to take out on his ass when they realize he’s robbing them.

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185. On March 1st, 2009 at 9:59 am
     Eyeball Records is Right, and Here’s Why? | Independent Clauses said:

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186. On March 1st, 2009 at 10:28 am
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